Southwestern Missouri Smallmouth Alliance

[ness]

Andy -- you got me interested in these Neosho smallmouth, so I did a little reading. Interesting stuff -- kinda sounds like the cutthroat/rainbow situation. Anyhoo -- don't want to get this wonderfully productive thread off topic, but could you tell me (and the world) where a Kansan might fish for some of these in his home state?

[fishgypsy]

They are a separate subspecies as recognized by the National Wildlife agencies. Micropterus dolomieu is the parent species, while the m. d. velox is a subspecies. They are genetically different, just as the fluvial arctic grayling is genetically different from the adfluvial grayling. How about rainbow trout and steelhead being considered different? They are both oncorhyncus mykiss, and as far as I can recall, genetically identical. Where is the difference? How about kokanee salmon and sockeye? They are the same species, but one is landlocked. Atlantic salmon and landlocked salmon, same thing AFAICR. The smallmouth subspecies also look different. The TN strain is a more girthy fish, whereas the Neosho is a leaner, more streamlined fish with the lower jaw extending beyond the upper far enough that the teeth can be seen from overhead. When did I say the Spring River is the only stream. The Spring, Shoal, everything in that area, including the Elk all go someplace. It is that parent drainage that deserves concern. You read part of my post, not the other.

In this thread you've repeatedly referred to them as a separate species, which they are not. What "National Wildlife agencies," still regard them as a subspecies, can you provide further information?

As far as the comparisons you offered, you're sort of making my point for me. Montana grayling have some genetic differences from Arctic populations, but not enough to be warranted subspecific status. Rainbow trout and steelhead appear different, but are so genetically similar as not to warrant subspecific status. Same with the sockey and atlantic salmon species you mentioned. They're different, and their may be a genetic component to their difference, but it's not enough to warrant subspecific status. Same with the Neosho- it's different, but not different enough to be considered a subspecies. The scientific evidence which would corroborate their subspecific status just isn't there.

"Looking different," really has nothing to do with it. Lebron James and I look a whole lot different- he's leaner, I have more girth. His preferred habitat is a basketball court, mine is a stream. Some of that may have a genetic component, but it's not enough to classify us as subspecies.

I am hoping that the MSA does not focus on the bigger, more popular water, but rather on true conservation of a threatened species

I read your entire post, I just picked a stream I knew within the range of the Neosho strain. I'm aware they exist outside the Spring River drainage. What I don't understand is why focusing on conservation of the Neosho strange is any "truer," a goal than focusing on conservation of smallmouth bass in general, regardless of what waters they inhabit. Can you elaborate?

And I think in Pflieger's book it says that the nominal strain of smallmouth had been stocked in the Neosho's range in the past, though I don't have the book handy.

[Wayne SW/MO]

Here we go.

A similar situation exists for the Neosho Smallmouth Bass, Micropterus dolomieu velox Hubbs and Bailey. This subspecies was described based primarily on slight differences in counts of the second dorsal fin rays, pigmentation patterns, and dentition on the tongue (Hubbs and Bailey, 1940). The validity of M. d. velox was subsequently dismissed on the basis of slight morphological differences and clinal gradation into the nominal M. dolomieu (Bailey, 1956; Gilbert, 1998), a conclusion supported by more recent analyses of nuclear gene encoded allozymes and mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) sequence data (Stark and Echelle, 1998; Kassler, et al., 2002).

[drew03cmc]

Gypsy, you can't inhabit a basketball court? I understand I am a little passionate about the Neosho situation, but you can't all say it is a bad thing. I want the natives to be protected as best they can. That is my primary feeling.

Wayne, I have read that, I do understand, but in my mind, the classification was made for a reason. Oh well, apples and oranges, the price of oil in Thailand, whatever. I hope to see you all on the water chasing these abstractly named, subclassified, beautiful creatures.

[Wayne SW/MO]

I think the bottom line is all smallmouth are special.

[Gary Lange]

I think we need to band together and make a very large group with a big voice for Smallmouth Bass and all its Subspecies. Everyone here in there own way believes in the same basic principle and that is protecting and improving the Habitat of the Smallmouth Bass.

[Chief Grey Bear]

Of course he gets a pass on this one...there's nothing wrong with rational debate on any subject. I was just pointing out earlier that CGB was being contrary for the sake of contrarianism...you know you do that sometimes Chief. I thought it was superfluous criticism, that's all.

Rational debate depends on what your view is of the subject being debated. I was not being contary for the sake of contararianism. I was merely stating my point of view. Nothing more, nothing less.

[ness]

I think we should have a Head-Butters Ball out on a stream somewhere. Once we see each other face-to-face we'll probably all get along famously. Or there could be a brawl.

Wayner, in all seriousness, you summed it up nicely:

I think the bottom line is all smallmouth are special.

[rugulo]

Gary nicely put, we should end on that note. You started this and you should end it. There is symmetry to that.

[ColdWaterFshr]

Don't end it yet, I just found this!

Pretty funny stuff. Kinda silly that a few are concerned about where MSA will focus its efforts on certain strains in certain rivers and what not . . . when only 4 dudes showed up at the 1st meeting. And others who complain about the $20 membership fee when that $20 gets them a GREAT book that you couldn't photo-copy for less than $20 at Kinko's. If I were the membership dude in charge of the group, I would reach for the big rubber stamp that says "membership denied" for a couple of you menopausal types, and you know who you are. You'll do the club more harm than good.