Water Moccasins / Copperhead Snakes

[Champ188]

Very interesting report, Sam. Thanks for that.

[Billfo]

YIPES !!!

Phil may want to move this thread somewhere out of the Tablerock section, but since we're having fun talking about snakes I'll tell why I kill all poisonous snakes on sight.

I didn't used to be that way. I figured a snakebite would be like a big wasp sting - it'd hurt, swell up, turn red, and you'd either get over it or not. I found out different.

I'm from around here originally, but I did a whole career and retired from a Sheriff's department in Southern California. We had a big murder investigation going once - we knew who did it but we couldn't find the bodies. Information made us think that two people were buried in an approximate area of semi-desert, so we called in all extra personnel, the reserves, the mounted posse, search-and-rescue, and a helicopter and did a two-day intensive weekend search of that area. We had about 400 people walk the area slow in a line, 5 yards apart, looking for disturbed ground, clothes, or any clues.

One of our reserve deputies was a snake enthusiast and he kept a bunch of snakes at home, including poisonous ones (nuts, in my opinion). As our search line advanced, some of the deputies called out that there was a BIG rattlesnake and this guy went running over there. A few minutes later he came back down the line carrying a big snake, holding it behind the head and it was rattling like crazy, thrashing around, and trying to get away from him (like I said, he was nuts). That thing was about 5 1/2 feet long and as big around as your arm. As a supervisor I asked him what the heck he thought he was doing, and Deputy Dumbass was all happy - he said it was a rare "Mojave Green" and he was going to the kitchen trailer to put it in a plastic bucket to take it home!

Well, I didn't want him to turn it loose and he was holding it so I couldn't shoot it. I probably should'a just shot HIM and saved the workman's comp claim. Anyway, I let him do it, and I heard plenty about that from MY boss later!

A couple minutes after he left, guys over that way started hollering that he'd got bit and then I heard a shot. I ran down there and sure enough the snake had twisted away from the snake-collecting deputy and bit him on the hand. Then another deputy killed the snake with a shotgun. The guy's hand was red and swollen like you'd expect, with a couple of fang marks, and he was hurting bad. We got him on the helicopter and found out by radio where was the best place to take him for a snakebite (Loma Linda hospital). As the helicopter was taking off, another reserve deputy who was a professional photographer asked if he could go along to photograph the whole deal, and I said OK.

The guy lived through it but he nearly died and he was in the hospital for a month. The photographer made a project out of it and he made us a slide show for training purposes. He took identical close-up pictures of that hand, starting while they were in the helicopter and the emergency room, and then returning to the hospital for a picture every day for a month. I'm telling ya, that was no wasp sting - it was the awfullest thing you ever saw.

In less than a week, the flesh of that hand started to rot and drop off. It looked worst at about 3 weeks - a skeleton hand with bones and tendons bare, and green and black areas of meat falling away from the bones. You could see right through the hand between the bones. After numerous surgeries and grafts and about a year, the guy was left with kind of a claw that he couldn't move instead of a hand. He had to leave the Sheriff's dept., of course, and in real life he'd operated a road grader and he couldn't do that anymore either.

I've read that snakes inject venom intentionally, and this was a big snake that he had really upset. It gave him the full load, and he shouldn't have been fooling with it anyway. I know Missouri copperheads and cottonmouths aren't that bad, though a big rattler might be. But that's why I always kill poisonous snakes on sight, because I think about a person, and maybe a kid, going through something like that. We just don't need those things around, in my opinion.

[jdmidwest]

I had a customer bitten by a copperhead about 5 inches long, he had it in alcohol on the counter of his business. It bit his finger when he was turning a hose off. 2 weeks later, his hand looked like a latex glove that you blow up due to the swelling and fluid. He had to take the antivenom. It caused alot of damage for such a little bite.

If it poison, it usually gets relocated when I see them. Relocated to wherever snakes go when they die.

[Ham]

Phil may want to move this thread somewhere out of the Tablerock section, but since we're having fun talking about snakes I'll tell why I kill all poisonous snakes on sight.

I didn't used to be that way. I figured a snakebite would be like a big wasp sting - it'd hurt, swell up, turn red, and you'd either get over it or not. I found out different.

I'm from around here originally, but I did a whole career and retired from a Sheriff's department in Southern California. We had a big murder investigation going once - we knew who did it but we couldn't find the bodies. Information made us think that two people were buried in an approximate area of semi-desert, so we called in all extra personnel, the reserves, the mounted posse, search-and-rescue, and a helicopter and did a two-day intensive weekend search of that area. We had about 400 people walk the area slow in a line, 5 yards apart, looking for disturbed ground, clothes, or any clues.

One of our reserve deputies was a snake enthusiast and he kept a bunch of snakes at home, including poisonous ones (nuts, in my opinion). As our search line advanced, some of the deputies called out that there was a BIG rattlesnake and this guy went running over there. A few minutes later he came back down the line carrying a big snake, holding it behind the head and it was rattling like crazy, thrashing around, and trying to get away from him (like I said, he was nuts). That thing was about 5 1/2 feet long and as big around as your arm. As a supervisor I asked him what the heck he thought he was doing, and Deputy Dumbass was all happy - he said it was a rare "Mojave Green" and he was going to the kitchen trailer to put it in a plastic bucket to take it home!

Well, I didn't want him to turn it loose and he was holding it so I couldn't shoot it. I probably should'a just shot HIM and saved the workman's comp claim. Anyway, I let him do it, and I heard plenty about that from MY boss later!

A couple minutes after he left, guys over that way started hollering that he'd got bit and then I heard a shot. I ran down there and sure enough the snake had twisted away from the snake-collecting deputy and bit him on the hand. Then another deputy killed the snake with a shotgun. The guy's hand was red and swollen like you'd expect, with a couple of fang marks, and he was hurting bad. We got him on the helicopter and found out by radio where was the best place to take him for a snakebite (Loma Linda hospital). As the helicopter was taking off, another reserve deputy who was a professional photographer asked if he could go along to photograph the whole deal, and I said OK.

The guy lived through it but he nearly died and he was in the hospital for a month. The photographer made a project out of it and he made us a slide show for training purposes. He took identical close-up pictures of that hand, starting while they were in the helicopter and the emergency room, and then returning to the hospital for a picture every day for a month. I'm telling ya, that was no wasp sting - it was the awfullest thing you ever saw.

In less than a week, the flesh of that hand started to rot and drop off. It looked worst at about 3 weeks - a skeleton hand with bones and tendons bare, and green and black areas of meat falling away from the bones. You could see right through the hand between the bones. After numerous surgeries and grafts and about a year, the guy was left with kind of a claw that he couldn't move instead of a hand. He had to leave the Sheriff's dept., of course, and in real life he'd operated a road grader and he couldn't do that anymore either.

I've read that snakes inject venom intentionally, and this was a big snake that he had really upset. It gave him the full load, and he shouldn't have been fooling with it anyway. I know Missouri copperheads and cottonmouths aren't that bad, though a big rattler might be. But that's why I always kill poisonous snakes on sight, because I think about a person, and maybe a kid, going through something like that. We just don't need those things around, in my opinion.

So, if your guys had just left the snake alone then none of the negative consequences would have happened right? Unfortunately, the lesson you took away from this event was to kill all poisonous snakes rather than the proper lesson which was to leave the snakes alone and then you'll have no snake problems.

[Sam]

So, if your guys had just left the snake alone then none of the negative consequences would have happened right? Unfortunately, the lesson you took away from this event was to kill all poisonous snakes rather than the proper lesson which was to leave the snakes alone and then you'll have no snake problems.

Well, you're SURE right that he should have left it alone. It was just the one guy, doing something stupid without permission. We weren't out there to mess with wildlife.

Still, this isn't an empty continent anymore - people are everywhere. The same thing could happen if someone, even a kid, just put a hand or a foot in the wrong place (see the guy who turned off a water faucet, above). Far as I'm concerned, the existence of those poisonous snake species isn't worth that happening to even one person.

I guess there were grizzly bears once where I live, and long before that saber-tooth tigers, and long before that dinosaurs. They're gone, I'm glad, and poisonous snakes need to go too.

[Chief Grey Bear]

This is from the Wildlife Code:

(1) No bird, fish, crayfish, mussel, amphibian, reptile, mammal or other form of wildlife, including their homes, dens, nests, eggs and larvae in Missouri shall be molested, pursued, taken, hunted, trapped, tagged, marked, enticed, poisoned, killed, transported, stored, served, bought, sold, given away, accepted, possessed, propagated, imported, exported or liberated to the wild in any manner, number, part, parcel or quantity, at any time, except as specifically permitted by these rules and any laws consistent with Article IV, sections 4046 of the Constitution of Missouri; however, this Code shall not apply to other invertebrates except as specifically

provided.

Section 3CSR10-4.130 Owner May Protect Property, Wildlife Code of Missouri

Subject to federal regulations governing the protection of property from migratory birds, any wildlife except deer, turkey, black bears and any endangered species, which beyond reasonable doubt is damaging property may be captured or killed by the owner of the property being damaged, or by his/her representative, at any time and without permit, but only by shooting or trapping except by written authorization of the director, or, for avian control, of his or her designee. Except as authorized, use of traps shall be in compliance with 3CSR10-8.510. Wildlife may be so controlled only on the owner's property within twenty-four (24) hours and shall be disposed of only in accordance with his/her instructions. Deer, turkey, black bears and endangered species that are causing damage may be killed only with the permission of an agent of the department and by methods authorized by him/her. Mountain lions attacking or killing livestock or domestic animals, or attacking human beings, may be killed without prior permission, but the kill must be reported immediately to an agent of the department and the mountain lion carcass must be surrendered to him/her within 24 hours.

I'm no PETA person, but what is happening here is not the way I respect or teach my children to respect the outdoors and the species that occupy it and have occupied it since long before we invaded their territory. But that is just me and the way I was raised. Your milage may vary.

[Amish Bill]

I can identify a black snake, so after the initial shock and girl scream I leave them alone. If I stumble across a snake while walking in a field or woods (NOT YARD) I leave them alone. If a snake wants to keep living follow these 2 rules. If thet try to get in my boat I have a judge to convince them otherwise.

When I had the farm in Wheatland I was building a fence and had to go thru a pretty wooly spot driving steel posts a rattler made known his presence and to this day there's a 30 ft gap betwwen posts.

[jdmidwest]

This is from the Wildlife Code:

(1) No bird, fish, crayfish, mussel, amphibian, reptile, mammal or other form of wildlife, including their homes, dens, nests, eggs and larvae in Missouri shall be molested, pursued, taken, hunted, trapped, tagged, marked, enticed, poisoned, killed, transported, stored, served, bought, sold, given away, accepted, possessed, propagated, imported, exported or liberated to the wild in any manner, number, part, parcel or quantity, at any time, except as specifically permitted by these rules and any laws consistent with Article IV, sections 40–46 of the Constitution of Missouri; however, this Code shall not apply to other invertebrates except as specifically

provided.

Section 3CSR10-4.130 Owner May Protect Property, Wildlife Code of Missouri

Subject to federal regulations governing the protection of property from migratory birds, any wildlife except deer, turkey, black bears and any endangered species, which beyond reasonable doubt is damaging property may be captured or killed by the owner of the property being damaged, or by his/her representative, at any time and without permit, but only by shooting or trapping except by written authorization of the director, or, for avian control, of his or her designee. Except as authorized, use of traps shall be in compliance with 3CSR10-8.510. Wildlife may be so controlled only on the owner's property within twenty-four (24) hours and shall be disposed of only in accordance with his/her instructions. Deer, turkey, black bears and endangered species that are causing damage may be killed only with the permission of an agent of the department and by methods authorized by him/her. Mountain lions attacking or killing livestock or domestic animals, or attacking human beings, may be killed without prior permission, but the kill must be reported immediately to an agent of the department and the mountain lion carcass must be surrendered to him/her within 24 hours.

I'm no PETA person, but what is happening here is not the way I respect or teach my children to respect the outdoors and the species that occupy it and have occupied it since long before we invaded their territory. But that is just me and the way I was raised. Your milage may vary.

OK Chief, try this scenario. 5' Timber Rattler coiled up in flower bed alongside house. It has crawled thru over a dozen horses and a few dogs to get there, any of which are worth more than than a good pair of rattlesnake boots. It is definitely on your property and poses a danger to humans and young kids running thru the yard. What do you do?

You are going into the feedhouse, its dark, and you feel something brush your leg as you enter. You turn the light on and realize you were just missed by a Copperhead. Granted it was only looking for a mouse, but. What do you do?

[Sam]

"(1) No bird, fish, crayfish, mussel, amphibian, reptile, mammal or other form of wildlife ....yada, yada"

In my opinion, governments are real good at wanting to run everything, passing laws that say so, then not wanting to pay for the consequences of their actions.

In this case, is the State government saying they'll pay for any damages caused by their protection of poisonous snakes? When someone gets bit, will the State pay all medical bills, rehabilitation, lost work time, etc.? No?

Then they don't get to say.

[Ham]

OK Chief, try this scenario. 5' Timber Rattler coiled up in flower bed alongside house. It has crawled thru over a dozen horses and a few dogs to get there, any of which are worth more than than a good pair of rattlesnake boots. It is definitely on your property and poses a danger to humans and young kids running thru the yard. What do you do?

You are going into the feedhouse, its dark, and you feel something brush your leg as you enter. You turn the light on and realize you were just missed by a Copperhead. Granted it was only looking for a mouse, but. What do you do?

I'm not Chief, but I'd tell you what I would do, I would leave them alone.

I had a really big copperhead on my driveway last fall as I was leaving for work. I stopped my car and went and got my kids to show them the copperhead. We watched it from a close, but safe distance as the snake made its way into a more overgrown part of the yard. I KNOW I have snakes on my property. I use a flashlight at night. I watch where I walk on the wooded parts of the yard. I've taught may children to be careful as well.

On the way to a put in the other day, there was a mid sized copperhead in the road. I stopped the car and used my baitcasting rod to move him out of the road so that the next person to come along couldn't choose to crush him with their car tires. My buddy did point out that a boat paddle would have been a better tool to urge him off the road with. I'll keep that in mind for next time.

I know I don't have the skills to grab them by hand. I don't have the tools to move a big rattlesnake either. I'd love to see one though.