Trespassing Or Not?

[Gavin]

Indian Creek..Had a threatening note left on my windshield down there several years ago. Something to the tune of how they would do damage to my vehicle & person if I returned, have me arrested, etc. It was the work of a real wack job, so I haven't been back. Cheers.

[Smalliebigs]

Fly, I think these individuals were paranoid meth producers??? I'm not sure but I was not going to argue with them. I was 24 at the time and I just walked to my truck and left. At the time there was a bridge out on the road I drove back in there on and there was only one way out. As I was driving out of there going past a house just ajacent to the creek a woman threw a rock at me it was priceless!!! That is one reason I do generally carry a little Desert Eagle 380 with me most of the time when I fish alone in the sticks. When I got out of there I reported it to the Sheriff of Saint Clair, who is a buddy of mine. He told me it wasn't that uncommon back up in there, needless to say I don't fish there anymore. It's a beautiful creek but dangerous. Upstream on the Meramec from where the Indian dumps into the Meramec is where I have caught some of my biggest smallies by the way, I have several 20's in that area, not many people fish in that stretch....not much access.

[Flyflinger]

I never thought I would have to start packing a pistol with me...but I guess that time has come. I'm with you though...if confronted I would just be polite and leave, but if my life is put in jepordy that is somthing completely diffrent. I would bet my arse that its a meth producing scum bag...meth the mother of all dirt bags.

[Smalliebigs]

Fly, I'm not saying I'm out to shoot somone but I'll be darn if I am going to allow some freak to take me out like that. That is really the only incident like that I have come across but there have been a few other wierd ones with out guns. I had a guy on the upper Bourbeuse threaten to run my truck over with his tractor if I didn't leave.That was a true freak show!!! I will wade just about anywhere, I try to find someone for permission but sometimes you cant find anyone. I will still fish though, I guess that goes with territory???? I am a true creek freak!!!

[Flyflinger]

Fly, I'm not saying I'm out to shoot somone but I'll be darn if I am going to allow some freak to take me out like that. That is really the only incident like that I have come across but there have been a few other wierd ones with out guns. I had a guy on the upper Bourbeuse threaten to run my truck over with his tractor if I didn't leave.That was a true freak show!!! I will wade just about anywhere, I try to find someone for permission but sometimes you cant find anyone. I will still fish though, I guess that goes with territory???? I am a true creek freak!!!

I wasn't trying to imply that you would...but I am with you I am not going to let somone shoot me. I love the creeks and streams as well. Its got to be my favorite fishing by far, nothing is more satisfying than landing a lunker out of a knee deep Ozark stream. I fly fish mainly, but have been known to spincast.

So this discussion begs the question: Is there anywhere in rual Missouri that isn't overrun with Methheads and crazy landowners?

[Smalliebigs]

Yeah, you can come fish on my land. We have some land on the Meramec off of HWY N out of Bourbon, we have an awsome creek that flows threw the property called Brazil creek that would be great for a fly rod. It might be a little tight in there but you could roll cast easily, there are still some nice smallies in there and I have caught so many pig smallies out the river there I cant begin to count them. I don't use meth and wouldn't shoot ya....you just have to bring me a bottle of Macallan 12 year scotch.............just kidding man....but your right.

[Stoneroller]

569.140. 1. A person commits the crime of trespass in the first degree if he knowingly enters unlawfully or knowingly remains unlawfully in a building or inhabitable structure or upon real property.

2. A person does not commit the crime of trespass in the first degree by entering or remaining upon real property unless the real property is fenced or otherwise enclosed in a manner designed to exclude intruders or as to which notice against trespass is given by:

(1) Actual communication to the actor; or

(2) Posting in a manner reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders.

3. Trespass in the first degree is a class B misdemeanor.

Trespass in the second degree.

569.150. 1. A person commits the offense of trespass in the second degree if he enters unlawfully upon real property of another. This is an offense of absolute liability.

2. Trespass in the second degree is an infraction

Federal Law says that No one can claim ownership to the flowing water or the creekbed up to the average high water mark. (not flood stage) Missouri has written their own law skirting around this. I know it just got changed recently so that property owners can claim ownership of the stream bed, but I'm pretty sure that MDC is following the federal laws, at least they have told me there is no private flowing water and as long as you access the stream/river from a public access point and you are within the stream banks, you are not tresspassing. They were also keen to point out that if a land owner possesses a firearm and in any way points it near you or threatens you with it, to call the local law enforcement and press charges for unlawful use of a firearm. They can complain about 'tresspassing' if they want, but you cannot pull a firearm on anyone regardless if they are tresspassing or not. if they want to try to press tresspassing charges against you let them, it's a class b misdemenor, unlawful use of a firearm is a class D felony. you do the math.

all that being said, it's much easier to request permission than it is to deal with the hassle of pressing charges on someone.

[Flyflinger]

Yeah, you can come fish on my land. We have some land on the Meramec off of HWY N out of Bourbon, we have an awsome creek that flows threw the property called Brazil creek that would be great for a fly rod. It might be a little tight in there but you could roll cast easily, there are still some nice smallies in there and I have caught so many pig smallies out the river there I cant begin to count them. I don't use meth and wouldn't shoot ya....you just have to bring me a bottle of Macallan 12 year scotch.............just kidding man....but your right.

I live like 15 minute from there.

[Al Agnew]

We've hashed this out in several earlier threads...

Absolutely NO state pays any attention to the federal law that states that all flowing water is public. So for all intents and purposes that federal law means absolutely nothing, and until somebody takes it the U.S. Supreme Court it will go on meaning absolutely nothing.

Missouri's law, that the landowner owns the stream bed to the center of the stream, is like most other states' laws, and it's been that way probably ever since MO became a state. The MO Supreme Court decision in Elder vs. Delcour back in the 1950s gave the public the right to use streams even though they are technically trespassing if they are touching banks or bottom of the stream, but it did not establish how small a stream can be before the public can't use it, and because the decision had to do with a person floating the stream and not wading it, ever since the decision it has been taken to mean ONLY floatable streams.

So...no, there is no law or statute that you can read to get a definitive answer. There is no list of "public" streams. The fact is that it depends almost entirely on the sheriff and prosecutor of the county you're in, and whether they want to pursue a trespass charge if a landowner accuses you, or whether they want to allow the landowners to keep people off their creeks. Generally, on small wading size streams, the county officials will be on the side of the landowners when it comes to those creeks that are generally considered too small to float.

So as a practical matter, the wading angler has two choices...find somebody to ask permission, even though the chances are that if you wade very far you'll go off that person's land. But usually the landowner that's nearest the access is kind of a gatekeeper. Or take your chances. What I do is check out the access, and if there is an obvious place to park and a lack of purple paint and no-trespassing signs I figure I'll be okay. If the no-trespassing notices are everywhere, I'll usually go somewhere else or else ask permission from the nearest landowner.

[Flyflinger]

We've hashed this out in several earlier threads...

Absolutely NO state pays any attention to the federal law that states that all flowing water is public. So for all intents and purposes that federal law means absolutely nothing, and until somebody takes it the U.S. Supreme Court it will go on meaning absolutely nothing.

Missouri's law, that the landowner owns the stream bed to the center of the stream, is like most other states' laws, and it's been that way probably ever since MO became a state. The MO Supreme Court decision in Elder vs. Delcour back in the 1950s gave the public the right to use streams even though they are technically trespassing if they are touching banks or bottom of the stream, but it did not establish how small a stream can be before the public can't use it, and because the decision had to do with a person floating the stream and not wading it, ever since the decision it has been taken to mean ONLY floatable streams.

So...no, there is no law or statute that you can read to get a definitive answer. There is no list of "public" streams. The fact is that it depends almost entirely on the sheriff and prosecutor of the county you're in, and whether they want to pursue a trespass charge if a landowner accuses you, or whether they want to allow the landowners to keep people off their creeks. Generally, on small wading size streams, the county officials will be on the side of the landowners when it comes to those creeks that are generally considered too small to float.

So as a practical matter, the wading angler has two choices...find somebody to ask permission, even though the chances are that if you wade very far you'll go off that person's land. But usually the landowner that's nearest the access is kind of a gatekeeper. Or take your chances. What I do is check out the access, and if there is an obvious place to park and a lack of purple paint and no-trespassing signs I figure I'll be okay. If the no-trespassing notices are everywhere, I'll usually go somewhere else or else ask permission from the nearest landowner.

Solid advice, thanks.