My Trout Management Wish List

[ozark trout fisher]

Gotta agree with Eric, as much as it pains me , this survey debate is mostly semantics. Bottom line is most of the stocked trout either get caught, meet some other fate (or learn to avoid the surveyors somehow). A few survive, and they grow bigger over time. Just like I woulda thought.

The White Ribbon areas serve a need, and while it may not be an ideal management strategy, there are some positives. As mentioned before, they give the bait fisherman/trout eater a place to go. And that increases the base of outdoorsmen buying licenses, keeps our outdoor traditions alive, and makes for a more conservation-minded population.

If you don't like them, there are lotsa other places to go.

I just think that White Ribbon (put and take) management is based on an outdated concept. It's based on the concept that trout are stocked as a protein supplement instead of a sport fish. Take the White Ribbon stretch of the Roubidoux and the Blue Ribbon stretch of the Little Piney. The habitat is pretty near the same-they are both smallish freestone rivers with a good constant spring-flow, and occasional thermal problems in the summer. But one is managed as a White Ribbon area. It has lots of trout and trout-park like crowds for a week after stocking, and after that it's all you can do to find a few left overs. On Little Piney, there is good year-round fishing for wild rainbows. There might be less trout there than on the Roubidoux the day after a big stocking, but there are always fishable numbers of trout around. I'd rather have all our streams have steady trout populations than the huge variation you see on White Ribbon areas. I'd also like to see the trout have a chance to grow and reproduce.

Maybe not all White Ribbon areas should be eliminated. There are some stream stretches like White Ribbon stretch of the Little Piney (it gets way too warm in the summer) or Stone Mill Spring (there's just not enough water there to support a resident population) But the streams that can support wild or holdover trout management should be allowed to do so.

[ollie]

I think Troutfriend needs an invitation to "olliefest" this year! Come on down it's always the Saunday after Thanksgiving every year. This will be our 4th year now.

[Flyflinger]

I just think that White Ribbon (put and take) management is based on an outdated concept. It's based on the concept that trout are stocked as a protein supplement instead of a sport fish. Take the White Ribbon stretch of the Roubidoux and the Blue Ribbon stretch of the Little Piney. The habitat is pretty near the same-they are both smallish freestone rivers with a good constant spring-flow, and occasional thermal problems in the summer. But one is managed as a White Ribbon area. It has lots of trout and trout-park like crowds for a week after stocking, and after that it's all you can do to find a few left overs. On Little Piney, there is good year-round fishing for wild rainbows. There might be less trout there than on the Roubidoux the day after a big stocking, but there are always fishable numbers of trout around. I'd rather have all our streams have steady trout populations than the huge variation you see on White Ribbon areas. I'd also like to see the trout have a chance to grow and reproduce.

Maybe not all White Ribbon areas should be eliminated. There are some stream stretches like White Ribbon stretch of the Little Piney (it gets way too warm in the summer) or Stone Mill Spring (there's just not enough water there to support a resident population) But the streams that can support wild or holdover trout management should be allowed to do so.

I'd like to know how much it cost the state to keep these White Ribbon areas stocked....I mean total cost. Its intresting to think that my tax dollars are sittting in some dudes freezer. The whole white ribbon, put and take concept is a joke. I would bet that the state would generate 10 times as much tax revenue from fisherman if they would just concentrate on manageing for quality fishing. I admit the idea of keeping fish is lost on me...just don't understand it at all. By the time you catch enough, clean them, wash up, pack and freeze, thaw, and eventually cook...I'll spend the 6 bucks for some Salmon.

Now I am not saying that we should have statewide C&R...I can see the lure of keeping one for the camp that night. I just don't see filling you limit everytime you go out.

I have a friend that brags to me about his trout fishing powers by saying "I had my limit in the first 15 minutes!" So your whole weekend of trout fishing was done in like 30 minutes?

This debate has no end...the extremes in opinions are just to much. Much like liberals and conservatives...they will never see eye to eye. The way I see it there are 2 types of Trout anglers:

1. Grab a bucket, spinning gear and lets toss some cheese. (Trout are ment to be eaten..by me and the more I get in the freezer the more awesome I am)

2. Trout are a valueable/wonderful game fish that should be respected. (Trout are ment to be conserved...by me and the more I see in the water the more awesome I am)

Same goes for deer hunting.

[ness]

I just think that White Ribbon (put and take) management is based on an outdated concept. It's based on the concept that trout are stocked as a protein supplement instead of a sport fish. Take the White Ribbon stretch of the Roubidoux and the Blue Ribbon stretch of the Little Piney. The habitat is pretty near the same-they are both smallish freestone rivers with a good constant spring-flow, and occasional thermal problems in the summer. But one is managed as a White Ribbon area. It has lots of trout and trout-park like crowds for a week after stocking, and after that it's all you can do to find a few left overs. On Little Piney, there is good year-round fishing for wild rainbows. There might be less trout there than on the Roubidoux the day after a big stocking, but there are always fishable numbers of trout around. I'd rather have all our streams have steady trout populations than the huge variation you see on White Ribbon areas. I'd also like to see the trout have a chance to grow and reproduce.

Maybe not all White Ribbon areas should be eliminated. There are some stream stretches like White Ribbon stretch of the Little Piney (it gets way too warm in the summer) or Stone Mill Spring (there's just not enough water there to support a resident population) But the streams that can support wild or holdover trout management should be allowed to do so.

I see your points, and believe me, if I were king it would be a lot tighter out there. Sure, I'd let you fish, but not too many more.

But I try to look at the situation within the overall context. There is a long tradition of fishing for food, trout stocking and creel limits. If you try to go in and take that away, there's gonna be an uproar, and license sales will go down. I just don't think it's practical to shut them down, or reduce them significantly.

I think the trout plan improves the overall situation by tightening things up at the Blue Ribbon sections and it also appeases the catch/keep crowd. It's a compromise, trying to keep as many people happy as possible. We got the good stuff though, so I'm pretty content.

I think the Blue Ribbon section of the LP is far superior to the Roubidoux in habitat, and it's less accessible. That's good stuff.

[Al Agnew]

Just be careful what you wish for, you may not like it. Make everywhere have more restrictive regulations, and it spreads more of the catch and keep crowd to the best waters. Like it or not, there is still a major constituency out there who wants to use bait and eat trout (why I don't know...can't stand the taste of hatchery trout!) and I think you have to keep them appeased. As MDC people have pointed out to me in private, fisheries management isn't all science, it's also a lot of politics.

So personally I'm pretty happy with where we are in trout management...of course, I get my quality trout fix with the time I spend in Montana...

But we do have a surprising diversity of trout fishing in MO. Big rivers with wild fish (Eleven Point and North Fork), big rivers with fish that are at least marginally wild (Niangua and Meramec), small rivers with wild and marginally wild fish (Current and Little Piney), creeks with wild fish, creeks with somewhat wild fish, creeks with stocked fish you can catch and eat with a few wilder holdovers, tiny creeks with wild fish, a lake with big fish, and the purely put and take trout parks. And those various opportunities are fairly well distributed across the Ozarks within the limitations of available habitat. I'm not much concerned about introduced trout bothering smallmouth bass populations, because very few of the trout streams have much potential for growing good populations of smallmouth. I'm not overly concerned with the money spent in appeasing the trout eaters.

[Chief Grey Bear]

I'd like to know how much it cost the state to keep these White Ribbon areas stocked....I mean total cost. Its intresting to think that my tax dollars are sittting in some dudes freezer. The whole white ribbon, put and take concept is a joke. I would bet that the state would generate 10 times as much tax revenue from fisherman if they would just concentrate on manageing for quality fishing. I admit the idea of keeping fish is lost on me...just don't understand it at all. By the time you catch enough, clean them, wash up, pack and freeze, thaw, and eventually cook...I'll spend the 6 bucks for some Salmon.

Did you ever stop to think of how much that person spent with other merchants to catch those four fish? I doubt he was beamed down from the Enterprise. There was gas, license, corn, power bait, snacks, drinks, rods, line, hooks, sinkers, and what ever you think you might need. The last I knew, I thought it cost $1 per trout from the hatch to the release. He certainly spent more than that to get four trout. Plus the MDC recouped some monies on the taxes on the goods he purchased to get a little fish dinner. And the local merchants thank him for contibuting to the economy.

OTF, where did you get the crazy idea that trout are stocked as a protein supplement???? I have heard some crazy stuff, like when Taxi said if you know who got elected there would be no fishing in 2 years, but wow, that is a doozie right there. The MDC in not here to provide protein. They are here to provide fishing and hunting as well as other outdoor activities and see that they continue without depletion of the resource. And in the case of trout, it is nothing more than the sport of trout fishing and attacting new users to the outdoors. So yes we have to put up with some amusment park type areas. If we didn't, we would be loosing even more kids to the video game.

[Flyflinger]

Did you ever stop to think of how much that person spent with other merchants to catch those four fish? I doubt he was beamed down from the Enterprise. There was gas, license, corn, power bait, snacks, drinks, rods, line, hooks, sinkers, and what ever you think you might need. The last I knew, I thought it cost $1 per trout from the hatch to the release. He certainly spent more than that to get four trout. Plus the MDC recouped some monies on the taxes on the goods he purchased to get a little fish dinner. And the local merchants thank him for contibuting to the economy.

Valid point.

At least the White Ribbon area kind of concentrate the cheese tossers to one area.

[troutfiend1985]

The White Ribbon areas serve a need, and while it may not be an ideal management strategy, there are some positives. As mentioned before, they give the bait fisherman/trout eater a place to go. And that increases the base of outdoorsmen buying licenses, keeps our outdoor traditions alive, and makes for a more conservation-minded population.

If you don't like them, there are lotsa other places to go.

Just be careful what you wish for, you may not like it. Make everywhere have more restrictive regulations, and it spreads more of the catch and keep crowd to the best waters.

OTF, where did you get the crazy idea that trout are stocked as a protein supplement???? I have heard some crazy stuff, like when Taxi said if you know who got elected there would be no fishing in 2 years, but wow, that is a doozie right there.

Ness, I know that history and tradition is important. I don't want to see the whole state go C&R. Just a small section of each trout stream have a C&R zone. Look, the trout keeper could go fill your limit in another zone of the same stream, but then have the option of taking a Rapala, or Fly rod, and chasing bigger fish in a protected area. Looks good to me, satisfies both the conservationist(I get a chance to go into new waters that may have big fish) and the trout keeper(I can keep fish at this same stream using bait, but if I choose to use artificial lures I could chase more wild, possibly bigger trout).

Al, I know that the White Ribbon zones serve a purpose. But there is a large conservation movement, not just in one area but nationwide. You could effectively feed "both animals" here, appease both. Win my tax money, and others like me who are conservative about limits and keeping. Keep the others happy, by making the less accessible areas(or whatever the situation calls for) C&R, but keeping the majority of the stream white ribbon. I don't see a guy who wants to keep trout all of the sudden going to Crane, or any other blue ribbon stream, because a new regulation which makes a small portion of white ribbon streams C&R. Crane would never be easier, there is just too many variables in that little creek, or any other blue ribbon stream that plays into it. In furthering my point, I would think that these fisherman would already go to a Blue/Red Ribbon stream when the stocking is over and most of the trout are gone/spread out/or do whatever it is these trout do(move to the Himalayas and become a hermit), but I just don't see this happening.

Chief, I think that OTF was pointing to the loose regulations on White Ribbon streams and how the population of stocked Rainbows decreases substantially after stocking. Just my interpretation. However, I do think there are some politics behind the White Ribbon Management.

How long is Capps? Something like 1.5-2 miles long rough estimate. Lets say 1.5 miles, so what about a C&R zone that is roughly .5 miles long? Would that kill the people who like to keep trout?

Ollie, I would love to come to Olliefest, but I won't be down there this year, busy schedule. Like I said though, probably this December I could get out once or twice.

[ozark trout fisher]

OTF, where did you get the crazy idea that trout are stocked as a protein supplement???? I have heard some crazy stuff, like when Taxi said if you know who got elected there would be no fishing in 2 years, but wow, that is a doozie right there. The MDC in not here to provide protein. They are here to provide fishing and hunting as well as other outdoor activities and see that they continue without depletion of the resource. And in the case of trout, it is nothing more than the sport of trout fishing and attacting new users to the outdoors. So yes we have to put up with some amusment park type areas. If we didn't, we would be loosing even more kids to the video game.

I'm not saying that it is the MDC's intent to stock trout as a "protein supplement".That's just how it ends up when you allow people to keep 4 fish a day without any size limit. A lot of the catch and keep guys I see on Missouri trout streams don't seem to be out there for sport so much as to fill up a cooler of trout for themselves and their buddies. Hence the "protein supplement" comment. I'd rather see our trout being caught and released for someone else to catch than unceremoniously thrown in a cooler. It's not wrong to keep a trout or two for dinner when it's legal-I'm not opposed to that, but I don't like to see trout management that involves most of the stream's trout ending up dead in coolers.I'm not trashing the MDC. They do a good job generally, better than most states. But it still could be better, although it may be asking too much.

As for what you said attracting kids to our sport, and not scaring them away with tight regs-that's a fair point.Let kids 12 and under keep a limit of four fish and use any kind of bait they want. I don't have a problem with that.

All that said, I do think Troutfiends idea for having short 1/2 mile C&R areas within regular white ribbon stretches is probably the best idea. It's not exactly what I would like to see, but it's better than the status quo, and it would be a lot more likely to pass the public opinion test that is involved with any new hunting or fishing regulation.

[Flyflinger]

You guys are arguing semantics about the Capps Creek study...it doesn't matter at all, because generally, Blue Ribbon regs are better for the angler, and White Ribbon regs are better for the grocery store's sales of lemon and butter. If they turned Capps into a Blue Ribbon and went from six stockings a year down to one or two, it would fish better and there would be better fish at a fraction of the cost. But we all know how many families would starve to death then, so forget that.

If I had my way, all flowing streams would be managed as Blue or Red Ribbons except for the parks. They could shut down the urban programs, too, as far as I'm concerned, even though I do enjoy getting my fix at Busch in the winter. With all the talk about returning to fiscal responsibility, everyone should agree with that, right? After all, the MO trout programs should be about fishing, not feeding people, and that's what the White Ribbons and urban programs are...an all-you-can-eat buffet. But I'm notoriously unsympathetic to meat anglers, and y'all know that, so whatever. Maybe they could hire someone to pick up the hoosiers' trash if they weren't spending so much on cranking out tons and tons of biomass.

And I'll add this...If I see tighter regulations implemented for trout before smallmouth, I'm gonna throw a conniption fit.

BRAVO!