Ticketed For Paddlefish Out Of Season

[eric1978]

I won't really speculate on if what you were doing was right or wrong ethically, but legally I think you had every right to do it. Makes me mad when they have regulations in place that can confuse the law and then try to bust someone on it. Just like catching a bunch of short trout on powerbait in a red ribbon area, lots of fish die but you must throw them back if they aren't 15". If it is legal to be snagging gar right now and that is what you were honestly doing I would fight it for sure. MDC knows the risk of incidental catches in snagging and if they are that worried about it they need to end grabbing for everything all at the same time, or in areas where these species congregate. I would talk directly to the prosecutor and see what he says, then tell him you will fight it so be ready. Otherwise no one will know the law and you will be back in court time after time without resolution. Go to him with all the regs. and the honest story and he might throw it out on his own, give him the name of the CO and his number if he needs to call him. Next time if I were you, once you snag one I would move on, I'm sure it looked like you were enjoying yourselves and trying to snag more after that first one, but I'm not sure that is illegal if you also were getting some gar.

I do agree with you Justin, but his problem is not only the question of intent, but the fact that these fish should have been "released unharmed immediately," and the fact that he had them out of the water long enough to take pictures may be a problem for him. I realize guys take pictures of bass they catch out of season (myself included), but it is legal to fish for bass out of season if you catch and release...it's not legal to snag paddlefish out of season. So he's got double trouble to deal with if he fights the ticket.

It certainly is a gray area deal, but I think the confrontation could have been avoided if he changed location or kept the fish in the water. Tough call.

[MOPanfisher]

Just to change the question a bit, how did the other guy get a larger ticket for reeling in a fish you had snagged.

[Justin Spencer]

Unless the judge is a big paddlefish snagger I beg to differ thinking that the grabbing seasons being like they are will favor the defendant. The actions of the fisherman could bring things to light in a way we haven't heard about, but if all the judge hears is that they pulled them out and took a picture while legally snagging for fish that are in season I think he will throw it out, there is really no way to prove intent if methods were legal during a legal season and no paddlefish were kept (yes technically it probably is illegal to take pictures, but it seems like judges don't usually hold up murky wildlife laws like this). Just like trapping an otter when targeting beaver after otter season has closed, it isn't legal to trap otter, but they haven't outlawed conibears during that time, so you just have to toss a dead otter back, not the trappers fault but kind of a glich in the system (I have been told to either throw the otter back, or call MDC and they'll come get it for educational purposes).

[Gavin]

The charge on the ticket is "Snagging paddlefish out of season". The season was closed on April 30th and you snagged 4 of them by your own admission..You definetly have an uphill battle if you want to fight it...How much is the fine? If its a small one, I'd pay it and move on...doesnt make you a bad person.

[Al Agnew]

Yeah, I noticed too that the ticket is for "taking or attempting to take" padddlefish, not for not releasing them immediately. I think the biggest problem he has is that he kept doing exactly what he did (and probably exactly WHERE he did) after he caught the first one. I also think that the agents were partially convinced that he was purposely trying to snag them because who the heck EVER snags for gar? They ain't easy to snag unless you have really heavy equipment and really big sharp hooks (exactly what you'd use for paddlefish). I think I could snag for gar with ordinary equipment like you'd use to snag for suckers for a year without sinking a hook into one--they are just too armor-plated.

So while he might have been doing this perfectly innocently, it had to look extremely suspicious to the agents.

But maybe, as others have suggested, the rules need to be changed to where the snagging season for everything ends at the same time, or else have temporary closures where paddlefish have congregated. I wonder whether this is something that happens below the Lake Springfield dam every year, or just on a year like this when there was very high water at just the right time.

I can remember when it was supposedly illegal to target bass during the closed season. Of course, everybody just said they were fishing for goggle-eye, but everybody knew they were really targeting bass. It was so common that it was impossible to enforce, so they finally changed the wording to where the bass have to be released immediately. And as he found out, "immediately" is even a vague term. However, I would suspect they look upon paddlefish a little differently, because, like I said before, it takes some fairly specialized equipment and technique to snag them and hardly anybody uses the same equipment and techniques for anything else (so it isn't a common occurence), AND snagging one with a big treble puts a lot worse wound in it than the average hook wound in a bass.

Tough call. Perhaps the agents should have gone down to him after the first one and told him that if he persisted in doing what he was doing and snagged another, he'd get a ticket, instead of hiding long enough to watch him catch four of them and then springing the ticket on him. It's another example where I question what the goal really is. If the goal is to protect paddlefish, waiting until he put wounds in four of them and held them out of the water for pictures isn't really doing a good job of it. It's more like the goal is to write tickets. Agents hiding in the brush waiting to catch somebody doing something wrong isn't always the best way to protect the resource, the best way is often for the agents to have a visible presence to discourage law-breaking in the first place.

[Wayne SW/MO]

I don't know exactly what the MDC considers taking, but many states say that catch and release must be done without removing the fish from the water.

Having witnessed a few big trout struggle to survive after long picture taking sessions below TR, I wish they would enforce that at Taneycomo.

[plexlove]

I'm not going to say you did or didn't deserve this ticket, nor will I speculate whether or not you should contest it in court. But let me pose another scenario to you and see if it changes your perspective at all...

Here in St. Louis, they stock some of our ponds with trout in the winter. Some of the lakes are catch and release only until February. I was fishing one of these ponds in November, when I saw a couple guys start fishing about fifty yards from me. I watched one guy catch a fish while he was talking on his cell phone. He used his rod to drag the fish onto shore, then proceeded to finish his conversation for approximately "3 minutes," all the while the trout flopped around in the gravel and dirt.

I later realized these two guys were fishing with Powerbait, which was also illegal on this pond at the time, so as I was leaving I walked over to them and told them they were illegal, and should drive over to one of the catch and keep ponds if they wanted to fish with bait. While I was talking to them I noticed 3 belly-up trout floating within ten feet of them.

I'm going to assume at least one of those fish died because of poor (downright negligent) handling techniques, so even if they were fishing with legal flies or other lures, I absolutely believe he would still deserve a ticket since the rules clearly state: All fish must be released unharmed IMMEDIATELY.

Just something to think about. Maybe if you had kept the paddlefish in the water and popped the hook out right away, the agent would have given you a pass. Accidents happen, and they know that. But they also know the second a fish is taken out of the water, their chances of survival start rapidly decreasing. 3 minutes is a long time for a fish to be out of the water. I know I can't hold my breath that long.

I understand that point completely but lets be honest, i am not those guys, i got the fish on bank and back in the water as fast as possible minus a picture which took no time at all! I couldnt unhook the fish in the water....idk if you have ever tried to pull a treble hook out of a 70+lb spoonbill in the water, but its not easy! they flop around too much and would injur themselves even worse than on land!

[plexlove]

Gotta say that if you snagged one or two without moving on knowing that you were getting paddlefish...that looks really bad. Once you accidentally catch a fish with a technique you aren't really able to claim ignorance of their presence. Also note that they didn't ticket you after one, two, or even three. I think an argument could be made that they employed unusual restraint, and that you didn't employ good common sense to protect yourself.

Look, the question is of intent. You could always go out snagging for paddlefish, get caught and claim you were after gar. How are the officers supposed to know the difference? When intent is the question, it's always a subjective matter since nobody can get inside your head.

Not to be accusatory, but I think you've got an uphill battle. The judge is not going to see it your way. It does bring up a good question about accidentally taking fish out of season. At what point is it not accidental? I think a judge will say that after multiple accidents in the same area taking pictures of what your accidentally catching makes this no accident.

But good luck.

Well see that is the whole issue...It is not illegal to "snag" a paddlefish out of season, just as it is not ilegal to catch bass out of season, it is just illegal to keep them! And i cannot claim to be gar snaggin and keep catching paddlefish all the time because gar snagging seaon ends the 15th. One would think, that if the conservation dept was really worried about paddlefish then they might wanna change the snagging dates. Doesnt make much sense to be able to snag gar 15 days after paddlfish season ends and expect people not to snag more paddlefish than gar!

During season i caught gar after gar after gar, not one spoonbill...now that spoonbill season ends i hardly catch any gar! That is not my fault the spoonbill came up river late!

And my snagging technique is the same for both fish and i tried numerous spots but mostly stuck to the areas where i would not lose my hooks due to snags. They should not be able to ticket me even if i caught 300 paddlefish with the same techinique in the same spot and took pics of all of them and didnt get one gar!

I can not help what fish swims in front of my hook!

The point is,i released them immediately and even warned others not to take them if they caught any!

[plexlove]

Just to change the question a bit, how did the other guy get a larger ticket for reeling in a fish you had snagged.

Because the game wargens are dicks! Sorry but its true, the lady one took that guy in her truck then the guy took me in his and explained they had an agent watching us for hours and saw us catch spoonbill. I said yeah i did and he asked about the other guy, i told him he didnt catch anything, he had jsut never reeled in anything that big so i told him the next thing i snagge i would let him reel it in, so i did. The guy never even touched the fish.

Well the guy gave me the minimum ticket for it because i gave him a sob story, then he informed me i was lucky because his partner gave the other guy the full ticket which was like 300 or something!

That right there is what made me blow up! That guy did nothing wrong, just downt there fishing with his wife and kid and now he is out $300 for no reason, for ignorance to a stupid law that does not have clear regulations!

[3wt]

So two good points: when do incidental catches cease to be incidental and what is an immediate release?

I would tend to say that "no longer than three minutes" for a picture is too long for immediate - if it's out of the water. For a trout that could be death. I don't think the intent of immediate is to prevent you from taking a picture, but that's a lot of time. If I was the judge I'd think you were a guy gigging for paddlefish and using the gar thing as your "out." Still not accusing you, but it looks real bad to me.