Smallmouth Regs Debate...again

[eric1978]

Well I'm bored enought to throw in my pair o' pennies...

Who cares about park regs? 4 fish per day is hard enough for morons to remember, so just leave it at that.

Outside of the parks should be C&R only for browns, 2 rainbows per day, statewide, just to eliminate confusion.

Smallmouth should be slot limit statewide...release all fish 12-18 inches, 4 per day, 1 over 18.

Lots of other fish to eat. Lots.

There's my dream. Now step all over it.

We went over this when the "new regs" were being forced so I will give the short version. The MSA touts themselves as the savior of the smallmouth bass in Missouri. Yet all you see for accomplishments is posting signs, setting up a booth at boat shows to garner new members, a once a month fishing trip/meeting, and the occasional stream clean up. In essence it is nothing more than a bass club disguised as a conservation effort.

Now I really don't want to get any further away from the subject of this thread than we already have. And I will take the blame for that. But if you would like to discuss this further, please start another thread and I will happily join in. But lets make it a real discussion and not a pissing match. I layed it before and would be happy to do it again, I just don't think the MSA is going in the right direction. Just my opinion.

*except west of the James River and south of I-44, slot is 12"-15", with one over 15", with 6 per day in McDonald County. If I can ever get you down there some day, you will understand.

MSA is an activist group...so is Greenpeace, but whaling still goes on. Their purpose is to draw attention to a cause and slowly chip away towards progress. Nothing happens overnight, and no one activist group is going to have absolute power. I appreciate what they do. I see their signs at almost every MDC access, and they surely don't hurt.

I guess we'll talk about it in September after we all catch limits of 18" fish down there. Then you'll have me convinced the regs are fine.

Well, they ain't very active then are they.....

That all depends on how good a fisherman you are, not how good the regs are cowboy....

Eric, that is no BS about some streams in Mac county being overpopulated. We floated two weeks ago and caught hundreds of smallmouth to 12 inches and a couple larger than that. We caught none over 15", but we saw several that would broach 17 or 18. They are in there, but you are not going to catch them. Trust us. We fished to them and dropped plastic on their heads. Nothing would stir these behemoths to bite. Now, in my opinion a lower slot, from 12-15 would help out these fish, which as we have discussed on here do not grow as large as the smallmouth in other parts of the state due to different genetics. Why should we (in SWMO's Ozarks) be forced to abide by laws that do not enhance the fisheries we frequent, but rather were implemented with the singular objective to improve smallmouth fishing in the Meremac River system and its tributaries by a bunch of guys that have rarely, if ever, fished in the waters we speak of?

You mentioned the James River. Well, I hate to tell you this, but those aren't Neoshos. Those are northern strain smallmouth, and with the James being bigger water, you should see larger fish. We should put you on some Neoshos one of these days that you can escape from St. Louis and let you see what we have harped on for over two years. When people comment that smallmouth cannot be overpopulated, I can only laugh.

[eric1978]

Eric, that is no BS about some streams in Mac county being overpopulated. We floated two weeks ago and caught hundreds of smallmouth to 12 inches and a couple larger than that. We caught none over 15", but we saw several that would broach 17 or 18. They are in there, but you are not going to catch them. Trust us. We fished to them and dropped plastic on their heads. Nothing would stir these behemoths to bite. Now, in my opinion a lower slot, from 12-15 would help out these fish, which as we have discussed on here do not grow as large as the smallmouth in other parts of the state due to different genetics. Why should we (in SWMO's Ozarks) be forced to abide by laws that do not enhance the fisheries we frequent, but rather were implemented with the singular objective to improve smallmouth fishing in the Meremac River system and its tributaries by a bunch of guys that have rarely, if ever, fished in the waters we speak of?

You mentioned the James River. Well, I hate to tell you this, but those aren't Neoshos. Those are northern strain smallmouth, and with the James being bigger water, you should see larger fish. We should put you on some Neoshos one of these days that you can escape from St. Louis and let you see what we have harped on for over two years. When people comment that smallmouth cannot be overpopulated, I can only laugh.

How do you know what laws would or wouldn't enhance the "fisheries you frequent" if you've never had anything but uber-liberal creel limits? It's all just speculation by all of us, and I speculate that a statewide slot of 12-18 would help all MO streams. I know you think you have this totally unique species of smallmouth down there, but seriously, it's not that different. I bet I could hold a Neosho and a "regular" smallmouth side by side, and you couldn't tell me with certainty which was which unless you knew what rivers they came from.

Either way, a slot limit would help the "overpopulation problem" you say you have, and also help protect the more mature fish. If you catch an 18" Neosho, then take her home and hang her on your wall...according to you she's not got long to go at that point anyway, so I don't really have a problem with harvesting that fish. But a 15 incher has a few years and inches to go, lots of spawning left to do, and should be kept in the river until maturity.

We also saw thousands of <12" smallmouth on Big Piney last weekend...that isn't unique to SWMO streams...that's par for the course for most healthy MO streams. And we also caught some fish better than 17", so I guess it's not that overpopulated. Most streams in MO can handle harvest of a few smaller fish per day per angler. It's the bigger fish we need and should want to keep in the streams. I just don't understand why you would have a problem with that. Let the fish mature before they're harvested. There's a big difference between a 15" fish and an 18" fish, and as a fisherman I don't know why you'd rather see them in a skillet than in the river.

[drew03cmc]

How do you know what laws would or wouldn't enhance the "fisheries you frequent" if you've never had anything but uber-liberal creel limits? It's all just speculation by all of us, and I speculate that a statewide slot of 12-18 would help all MO streams. I know you think you have this totally unique species of smallmouth down there, but seriously, it's not that different. I bet I could hold a Neosho and a "regular" smallmouth side by side, and you couldn't tell me with certainty which was which unless you knew what rivers they came from.

Either way, a slot limit would help the "overpopulation problem" you say you have, and also help protect the more mature fish. If you catch an 18" Neosho, then take her home and hang her on your wall...according to you she's not got long to go at that point anyway, so I don't really have a problem with harvesting that fish. But a 15 incher has a few years and inches to go, lots of spawning left to do, and should be kept in the river until maturity.

We also saw thousands of <12" smallmouth on Big Piney last weekend...that isn't unique to SWMO streams...that's par for the course for most healthy MO streams. And we also caught some fish better than 17", so I guess it's not that overpopulated. Most streams in MO can handle harvest of a few smaller fish per day per angler. It's the bigger fish we need and should want to keep in the streams. I just don't understand why you would have a problem with that. Let the fish mature before they're harvested. There's a big difference between a 15" fish and an 18" fish, and as a fisherman I don't know why you'd rather see them in a skillet than in the river.

Eric, yet again, I must tell you this. You can tell a Neosho from a northern strain with a couple little indicators. Simply put, the bottom jaw of the Neosho is going to protrude in front of the upper jaw to the point that the teeth on the bottom jaw are visible from above. The mouth is larger, meaning it extends to the middle to back of the eye, whereas the northern's mouth stops at the front of the eye. Also, the Neosho does not have scales on the caudal membrane, where the northern does. There is little to no tiger striping on a Neosho at any time of year. The Neosho is a thinner fish, weighing less for the length. Yes, I, and anyone else who knows what they are looking at and for, can tell the difference. You, never having caught one, probably couldn't tell the difference.

When did I say I would rather see a big smallmouth in a skillet? I didn't and if you think I did, you misread and misunderstood anything I have said. Why put regulations on the Neosho fish (seldom growing beyond 17") that prohibit one from keeping an 18" fish, which is at the top end of its life cycle? The 12-15 slot limit would allow one to keep and mount a big Neosho without having to be over 18", which you may never catch, while releasing the majority of the "bigger" fish.

Missouri might not recognize the Neosho smallmouth as a separate species, but Oklahoma at least gives the fish the consideration it deserves and as such has refused to stock northern strain fish in Grand Lake because the rivers that feed the lake on the upper end hold native Neoshos and would eventually be cross bred and the genes in those streams would be diluted. There are no smallmouth in Grand, and the ODWC doesn't want any there.

Missouri could at least recognize the unique genes that are present in the Spring and Elk drainages and put different regulations on those two systems, much like they did with the spotted bass regulations on the Meramec.

[Wayne SW/MO]

Personally my thoughts are that they should consider them at risk in all flowing waters. The risk isn't from their numbers, but from the degradation of their habitat. That isn't going to change so they should probably focus on keeping the numbers as high as reasonably possible to keep ahead of the obvious future risks.

I don't see a need for anything special for the Neosho, other than banning any introduction of other strains.

[eric1978]

Eric, yet again, I must tell you this. You can tell a Neosho from a northern strain with a couple little indicators. Simply put, the bottom jaw of the Neosho is going to protrude in front of the upper jaw to the point that the teeth on the bottom jaw are visible from above.

Sounds like a Neanderthal. In that case, I have caught a Neosho.

Okay, so it sounds like maybe you could tell the difference...I'd still like to find a way to put you to the Pepsi challenge one day. It'd be a fun experiment. Don't see how that'll ever happen, though.

It's weird that you're so passionate about them, yet you don't care that the biggest ones can legally be taken home for supper.

When did I say I would rather see a big smallmouth in a skillet? I didn't and if you think I did, you misread and misunderstood anything I have said. Why put regulations on the Neosho fish (seldom growing beyond 17") that prohibit one from keeping an 18" fish, which is at the top end of its life cycle? The 12-15 slot limit would allow one to keep and mount a big Neosho without having to be over 18", which you may never catch, while releasing the majority of the "bigger" fish.

I still don't understand why you would care if the limit was bumped to 18". What's the advantage of a 15" limit? None, except people could keep more fish. That's an advantage for a meat hunter, not a sport fisherman. Let them fight their own fight.

Get a replica if you wanna show off your catch. Or a picture. A picture is better anyway. I just think a statewide limit would be easier to get passed and to implement, and easier to understand for the moron public. There are so many different regulations on different rivers that people just start to say forget it and not even bother learning them, if they ever thought about it to begin with.

Why not err on the high side instead of the low?

Missouri might not recognize the Neosho smallmouth as a separate species, but Oklahoma at least gives the fish the consideration it deserves and as such has refused to stock northern strain fish in Grand Lake because the rivers that feed the lake on the upper end hold native Neoshos and would eventually be cross bred and the genes in those streams would be diluted. There are no smallmouth in Grand, and the ODWC doesn't want any there.

I have a hunch that the Neoshos are about as pure a strain of fish as the McClouds in Crane. Maybe I'm wrong, but with all the tinkering we do, they must have been screwed up by now.

Missouri could at least recognize the unique genes that are present in the Spring and Elk drainages and put different regulations on those two systems, much like they did with the spotted bass regulations on the Meramec.

But I thought you were all against the spotted bass regs in the Meramec system? If an invasive species is okay for one stream, why not another?

[drew03cmc]

I have a hunch that the Neoshos are about as pure a strain of fish as the McClouds in Crane. Maybe I'm wrong, but with all the tinkering we do, they must have been screwed up by now

But I thought you were all against the spotted bass regs in the Meramec system? If an invasive species is okay for one stream, why not another?

There is no record of any mixed stocking in these drainages.

Now, I am against all of the spot regs, but you all seem to be in favor of them, so keep them if it makes you all happy. I haven't read or heard anything about spots this year, so I don't know the status of the "invasion".

You might have something in that it is better to err high than low. I do understand how confusing a slot limit can be for some fishermen, but for those of us with a whole brain and most of our teeth, it shouldn't be too tough

[eric1978]

You might have something in that it is better to err high than low. I do understand how confusing a slot limit can be for some fishermen, but for those of us with a whole brain and most of our teeth, it shouldn't be too tough

Problem is the huge number of people in our state without brains and teeth. So while I do appreciate the value of having specific regulations for each individual river, that's not going to be practical to implement, enforce, or even to expect most people to know about or understand. So a statewide reg would be most favorable IMO, and if that would ever be the case, a 12-18" slot sounds to me like a good umbrella formula.

[drew03cmc]

Problem is the huge number of people in our state without brains and teeth. So while I do appreciate the value of having specific regulations for each individual river, that's not going to be practical to implement, enforce, or even to expect most people to know about or understand. So a statewide reg would be most favorable IMO, and if that would ever be the case, a 12-18" slot sounds to me like a good umbrella formula.

Eh, I could tolerate a 12-18, but it's not ideal for many waters in the state. While it would, in theory, protect the bigger brownies, it would, most likely, prevent people from keeping smaller fish as the smaller fish are not desired by meat hunters.

[Ham]

I'd be good with keeping ZERO smallies from flowing water flowing water regardless of their genetics. Plenty of other fish to eat.

[Chief Grey Bear]

I still don't understand why you would care if the limit was bumped to 18". What's the advantage of a 15" limit? None, except people could keep more fish. That's an advantage for a meat hunter, not a sport fisherman. Let them fight their own fight.

If it is one fish over 18" for all except swmo and 1 fish over 15" for all unimpounded waters in swmo, how the hell is that you can keep more fish?????

There are so many different regulations on different rivers that people just start to say forget it and not even bother learning them, if they ever thought about it to begin with.

Yet you don't mind haveing special regs for spots on your rivers????

Why not err on the high side instead of the low?

There is no err.

I have a hunch that the Neoshos are about as pure a strain of fish as the McClouds in Crane. Maybe I'm wrong, but with all the tinkering we do, they must have been screwed up by now.

Don't belive every thing you here about alleged milk can stockings. Trout yes, bass no. Not in these waters. 25 years of reasearch and questions have turned up nothing.