Guiding On Crane Creek?

[fishinwrench]

Don't know you personally Wrench, and I really wondered if I should reply. At the risk of starting an argument, I'm going to anyway because I feel strongly about the statements you made. The "problem" you refer to is called the Missouri Depertment of Conservation Regulations. While I may not understand or agree with all of them, I understand their purpose is to provide an enjoyable, sustainable resource for OUR recreation....yours AND mine. If the regulation states no commercial guiding on MDC property, then I view that in the same light as all other hunting and fishing regulations including tackle and bait restrictions, creel limits, bag limits, etc.

When I'm hunting or fishing on MDC land, whether I like it or not, it IS someone else's business, for lots of obvious reasons: my actions affect others. In my experience, anyone willing to disregard one regulation is likely to disregard all regulations, and that has an impact on me. The minute everyone starts to "do whatever you want"..........well, that should be easy enough to figure out.

Why would "knowing me personally" make a difference?

If I take someone fishing and they buy me dinner, how does that effect you negatively? Dinner could be 16.00 or 300.00 and whether or not you know either of us "personally" still doesn't make it any of your (or anyone elses) business.

Who are you eating dinner with tonite, and how does that effect Me? It doesn't, so you enjoy your dinner and let others enjoy theirs.

[ness]

Yep, there's always a way to skirt the rules.

[fishinwrench]

Yep, there's always a way to skirt the rules.

And thank dog for that.... cuz there's no shortage on rediculis rules that deserve "skirting".

[Andrew324]

I guess I don't mind if someone guides a lesson or what not on Crane, so long as they aren't the ones leaving trash and using nightcrawlers!

I am familiar with what the MDC calls a "Special Use Permit" but I have never heard or ran into trouble dealing with the MDC when I ask them for these permits to guide students in caves (pre WNS) or take them on hikes at Busiek, and so on. I always have used the term "guiding students" not "taking a trip with students". I used to speak directly to Tom Draper when he was District Director at West Plains and told him I was "guiding" and he never made a stink about it.

I'm just wondering if someone can cite where this MDC guiding regulation is? I'm curious because I cannot find it.

Now Mark Twain and the Forest Service - Flat Fees for all guiding no matter what, even if your non-profit/educational like my program is. But I think even the boyscout troops skirt those rules.

[strangercreek]

The party in reference was parked at the ball fields this morning.........

like I was mentioning, I was just curious as I have seen signs that explicitly say guiding is not allowed, this was a few years ago (at the lower wire road access).....I just think the MDC rules should be followed....regardless of what some folks think of MDC, they are responsible for the well being of those areas that we all get to enjoy. However those signs weren't at the city park/ball fields area, so no foul there I guess.

However I hope any guides are leaving some money in Crane, otherwise I would really disagree with doing business on one of the few isolated places left (I guess I'm going along with it in the aspect that anything like that could bring money to the local businesses)

[Andrew324]

I have seen signs that explicitly say guiding is not allowed, this was a few years ago (at the lower wire road access).....I just think the MDC rules should be followed....

I hate to stir the pot, but what rules? Seriously I'm just really skeptical about a regulation that no one has yet to point to or explain, and isn't listed anywhere online or in the wildlife code.

I assume that if you want to take another person fishing and they reimburse you (for whatever, your expertise or buying dinner) then the MDC isn't going to make a stink as long as you follow the regulations in place for fishing. If you want to take ten people fishing at your local MDC managed bass pond, then you have to use a special use permit, but you have to get a special use really anytime your taking 10 or more people to an MDC area.

Here are examples of:

special use permit for group fishing

commerical fishing report form

Here is a thread from a few years back where someone was searching for info on a guiding permit for the Current, but it only mentions the National Park Service permit I spoke about it my earlier post. No mention of MDC regulations

I just am really curious about this ghostly regulation, not because I want to be a jerk or be nitpicky, but because it affects my job.

[fishinwrench]

I'd kinda like to study the wording of it myself. Particularly interested in how the wording prohibits fishing guides but allows daily usage by commercial canoe float outfitters.

[pruett417]

Well this is all I found relating to this issue, there is no way to interpret the wording other than the way it is intended, but that's just an opinion. It's number 7 in this particular statute. I think this question is being raised because of increased pressure on this stream. And I think we all should look in the mirror when it comes to the pressure these fish get. I'm as guilty as anyone here, the bottom line is the fish get hammered at Crane, and I do my fair share of the hammering. However, I think that the fish still win out in the end, how many days have we all left that little creek feeling defeated and beat, only to come back the next day for another whipping. The things that do make me raise an eyebrow and a giggle are the claims that certain guides are having 30, 40, and 50 fish days.....guess no one has a conscience when it comes to drumming up business. And I will go a step farther, and say the morning that the said individuals vehicle was parked at the ballfields, I'm not sure where they went, hell it's none of my business but I can say that I made every attempt to fish the creek before they had a chance to (and I can say the thought crossed my mind about being annoyed that since all the generation at their normal stomping ground, you end up with your group here), but where the group went I had no idea they were no where to be seen from the railroad trestle, so maybe the fishing is being conducted on private land, or maybe I just didn't see them, who's to say and I really don't care to a point. But I can say that there are several of us that have a unique attachment to this place, it get's in your blood, and you don't care how many fish you catch, how many flies you lose, etc. But misuse, littering, etc. does matter.

Title 3—DEPARTMENT OF CONSERVATION

Division 10—Conservation Commission

Chapter 11—Wildlife Code: Special Regulations for Department Areas

3 CSR 10-11.105 Title; Authority

PURPOSE: This rule defines which department areas these regulations apply to and how exceptions to the regulations are made. The special regulations in this chapter apply on lands and waters (referred to as department areas) owned or leased by the Department of Conservation. The director may issue temporary written exceptions to rules and provisions of this chapter for emergencies, special events and other compatible uses.

AUTHORITY: sections 40 and 45 of Art. IV, Mo. Const. This rule previously filed as 3 CSR 10-4.115. Original rule filed April 30, 2001, effective Sept. 30, 2001.

3 CSR 10-11.110 General Provisions

PURPOSE: This rule establishes restricted activities on department areas.

(1) The following activities are allowed on department areas only where and as authorized by this chapter or by signs and area brochures or by a special use permit issued by the area manager: swimming, sailboarding, sailboating, skateboarding, boating, entry on areas closed to public use, bicycling, camping, shooting, hunting, fishing, trapping, removal of water, commercial use, vending, fires outside of designated camping areas, rock collecting, planting, digging and other soil disturbance, field trials, horseback riding, ranging of horses and other livestock, possession of pets and hunting dogs, caving, rock climbing, rappelling, paint-balling, scuba diving, water skiing, geocaching or letterboxing, the use and possession of vehicles and aircraft, the use of decoys, and the use or construction of blinds and tree stands.

(2) Collecting or possessing wild plants and wild animals (including invertebrates) and unprocessed parts thereof must be authorized by a Letter of Authorization for Plant Collecting or a Wildlife Collector’s Permit, respectively, except as otherwise authorized in this Code.

(3) On Thomas Hill Reservoir, swimming, sailboarding, scuba diving, and water skiing are permitted, except water skiing is prohibited north of Highway T on the Stinking Creek Arm of the lake and on the warm water arm of the lake upstream from the marker buoys.

(4) The destruction, defacing, or removal of department property and use of fireworks are prohibited.

(5) Possession of glass food and beverage containers is prohibited within the Castor River Shut-Ins Natural Area on Amidon Memorial Conservation Area.

(6) Waste containers may be used only for disposal of garbage, trash, refuse, or rubbish generated on the department area.

(7) Guiding for pay is prohibited on department areas.

AUTHORITY: sections 40 and 45 of Art. IV, Mo. Const. and section 252.240, RSMo 2000.* This rule previously filed as 3 CSR 10-4.115. Original rule filed April 30, 2001, effective Sept. 30, 2001. Amended: Filed May 9, 2002, effective Oct. 30, 2002. Amended: Filed Sept. 14, 2005, effective Feb. 28, 2006. Amended: Filed Oct. 10, 2008, effective April 30, 2009. Amended: Filed March 23, 2009, effective March 1, 2010. Amended: Filed Sept. 12, 2011, effective March 1, 2012. *Original authority: 252.240, RSMo 1972, amended 1984.

[pruett417]

Here's the url were I found it, and it took some time to find it.

http://www.sos.mo.gov/adrules/csr/current/3csr/3c10-11.pdf

[fishinwrench]

Here's the thing though.... How is a person guiding another person any different from that same fisherman fishing alone, as it relates to harming the fishery? Are you also not allowed to drive a leased vehicle onto MDC land, or hunt with a rented dog?

I suppose that at MDC accesses which are on "navigable streams", as long as your feet are wet you technically aren't on "department property", but on smaller streams like Crane they CLAIM ownership of the stream bed and can choose to make rules like that, similar to the assumed ownership of many landowners ?

Am I understanding all that correctly? Then this question comes to mind... If an angler hires a guide to fish Crane then who is breaking the rules, the angler? The guide? Or both?

And is this "rule" considered a "law" ? Punishable by what?