Smallmouth Issues/msa Meeting

[drew03cmc]

Drew one of the lakes i grew up on in Cali and was the holder of the world record ( Perris for Alabama spots) somehow ended up with Florida Strain Largemouths. Instead of setting 2 diffrent regs they stuck with a 2 bass 15 inch minimum size. It worked great. I talk to my dad often who fishes it daily and he says its still a super lake. My thought is to many people cant tell one bass from another so to protect the stupid people Cali made it very simple. Simple is the best IMO. Take the guess work out of it.

I seldom keep a bass it really has to be deep hooked for me to think about it. But the worms in smallies would not phase me a bit. Sea Trout are full of them and they dont add or detract flavor from the trout. Then again Ive been to south america and some of what ive ate there i dont want to know.

You aren't dealing with rare species there FnF. Here, we are talking about a fish that is present in 10 counties in the world. That is a little different.

[Feathers and Fins]

I understand that, But also a inherit problem to that. If its genectically proven out and some of the more radical groups with far more influance and money starts playing around then you will see full stream closures and massive intrusion to peoples property rights and other wonderful little things. I have seen it happen and is a very real possibility. Knee Jerk reactionist for certain but ones with lots of money behind them and a clear desire to not allow anyone to harm a fish, kangaroo rat or a fly.

[Gavin]

Your right Drew...the Neosho is a runt...havent had time to slice and dice the 2009 MDC report on the 1>15" areas.....but the Elk looks like a small fish fishery under quality management. The 1>15" limit did produce a good increase in 12-15" bass on the Elk though...didnt do squat for 18" plus bass.....but those fish would be legal to harvest...Rare as hen's teeth, before or after. anywhere in 1>15" water.

The 2009 survey....gives some soft data about the J. Fork & Gasconade but I cant find any hard data on those 1>18" stream sections...Kruse & DeiSanti 2002......I'd like to see some hard figures for that... PSD, RSD 12, RSD 15, and the RSD 18 for both...before, and after reg...-5 before reg, and last 5...

Plus the sample sizes are small...pre reg...not much..after reg...more in most but spotty. Definite increase in size stucture everywhere applied!...Big River was the most thouroghly studied. Some of the others...allot of the data collecion boxes were not filled when the data was aggregated and presented..Seemed to be a few odd data points as well. no correction for sampling on big v. small water....CFS data..date sampled, lots of data...not much to qualify it by.

[Al Agnew]

I understand the need for simple regulations, but you have to balance that need with the fact that not all streams or stream sections are anywhere close to equal. It ain't that simple. If you put on a 4 fish 14 inch limit, does that include just smallmouth? If so, what kind of limits do you impose on spots and largemouth? If not, you're still favoring the non-native spotted bass at the expense of smallmouth in the Meramec and Gasconade systems, since they typically don't get much over 12 inches in these streams (with some exceptions).

Do you scrap the special management areas?

And of course there are the Neosho streams.

I would somewhat reluctantly support a 4 fish 14 inch limit on all black bass, impose the 12 fish no size limit on spotted bass throughout the Meramec and Gasconade systems, and keep the special management area concept with some changes in the stream sections and limits. I'll defer to Drew and Chief as to what they'd like to see on the Neosho streams, but I suspect they'd need something different as well. I believe going to a total one size fits all regulation without those exceptions would put us worse off than we are now in some streams.

[drew03cmc]

I, personally, would support a 12-18" slot with a three fish limit in the Elk and Spring drainages for smallmouth. We could even extend that to all species of bass.

Gavin, the Neoshos are runts, but only compared to the top end of the Northern strain. There are large Neoshos, but they are RARE. My largest Neosho is 14", I think Chief's is about 16, maybe 17, so a 12-18, would protect the upper end of the size structure, while allowing smaller, (good eating size) fish to be kept if someone wished to.

[watermen]

Interesting thread gentleman, I myself fail to see how any of the proposed regulations relate to conservation. Smallmouth numbers are not in danger anywhere that I'm aware of. I think you are trying to make a world class fishery where one does not exist nad never will. I live right down the road from the Gasconade trophy area and yes there are way more bigger fish in the trophy area than above. I have access to land and cabin right below the line, The fishing is much better once you go under the bridge, both for numbers and size. it is not hard to catch fish over 18 on this stretch of the Gasconade. Most good anglers can catch a 20 incher every few trips, I've seen 3 boated the same day. Some stream sections will not produce fish much over 16" the big piney in the upper stretches has never even in my great grandfathers day produced fish much over 16. There were few fisherman by todays standards. Pressure has more of an effect than anything, Mill and spring creek used to be full of 5 or 6 pound trout and I see pictures of 8 inch fish all over like they are unique. i feel fishing should be stopped entirely on these rivers, the trophy blue ribbon section has done little to maintain the trout populations there. Most small 10-13 inch small mouth are male and none of the regulations other than a slot limit addresses this biological fact. I feel a daily catch limit of 2 fish over 10 inches makes more sense and should leave more fish in the water overall and allow people to keep enough to eat if they choose. 3 people keeping 2 fish is enough for a mess. Missouri will never be a world class smallmouth fishery on the streams, if someone truly wants to catch numbers of big fish they go to grand or little traverse, cedar river in the U.P., canadian shield lakes or the missouri up by pierre S.D. or the strawberry in eastern oregon or the new in VA. I've fished them all and what is here at home will never compare no matter what the regs. Strict catch and release is unfair to most anglers and all the regs proposed increase fish size only a little and do little in the conservation arena as far as i can tell. It's a hard sell for these reasons, little potential gain for everyone involved. Stream fishing is fun and you don't need alot of expensive equipment to do it on a hot day. That's all it needs to be and all it really should be.

[drew03cmc]

Interesting thread gentleman, I myself fail to see how any of the proposed regulations relate to conservation. Smallmouth numbers are not in danger anywhere that I'm aware of. I think you are trying to make a world class fishery where one does not exist nad never will. I live right down the road from the Gasconade trophy area and yes there are way more bigger fish in the trophy area than above. I have access to land and cabin right below the line, The fishing is much better once you go under the bridge, both for numbers and size. it is not hard to catch fish over 18 on this stretch of the Gasconade. Most good anglers can catch a 20 incher every few trips, I've seen 3 boated the same day. Some stream sections will not produce fish much over 16" the big piney in the upper stretches has never even in my great grandfathers day produced fish much over 16. There were few fisherman by todays standards. Pressure has more of an effect than anything, Mill and spring creek used to be full of 5 or 6 pound trout and I see pictures of 8 inch fish all over like they are unique. i feel fishing should be stopped entirely on these rivers, the trophy blue ribbon section has done little to maintain the trout populations there. Most small 10-13 inch small mouth are male and none of the regulations other than a slot limit addresses this biological fact. I feel a daily catch limit of 2 fish over 10 inches makes more sense and should leave more fish in the water overall and allow people to keep enough to eat if they choose. 3 people keeping 2 fish is enough for a mess. Missouri will never be a world class smallmouth fishery on the streams, if someone truly wants to catch numbers of big fish they go to grand or little traverse, cedar river in the U.P., canadian shield lakes or the missouri up by pierre S.D. or the strawberry in eastern oregon or the new in VA. I've fished them all and what is here at home will never compare no matter what the regs. Strict catch and release is unfair to most anglers and all the regs proposed increase fish size only a little and do little in the conservation arena as far as i can tell. It's a hard sell for these reasons, little potential gain for everyone involved. Stream fishing is fun and you don't need alot of expensive equipment to do it on a hot day. That's all it needs to be and all it really should be.

Disregarding your bias towards destination streams, Missouri's major smallmouth streams can, indeed, be world class streams. First, we have to define world class. In my opinion, world class is a designation given to a water containing a large number of fish above average, which in this case would be over about 12" to 17". Over 18" would likely be a superb fish, with 20" as a nice round designation as a trophy-sized fish. There are two or three stream stretches which are capable of trophy designation right now. The upper Gasconade, the middle Big Piney and the James, above the lakes. With a slot limit, which I am a huge proponent of, from 14-20" on all streams except the two SWMO drainages, it would protect the above average, superb and trophy fish, while allowing the fisherman with his kids to keep a couple of sublegal fish to fry up at camp that night. Simple regulations are not enough for our situation in Missouri.

Whether you know it or not, we are fortunate to have a rare strain of smallmouth bass in two drainages in Missouri. The Elk River and all of its tributaries, along with Spring River and all of its tributaries contain the Neosho smallmouth bass. They deserve special regulations to preserve and enhance those fisheries. The Neosho is visibly different than the northern strain, they inhabit slightly different areas in the stream than northerns and they do not grow as large as a rule. To catch a 16" Neosho or larger is a special occurrence. I had a hook in one last summer, but my largest is a fat 14" fish from Shoal Creek.

You mention that you think fishing should be illegal on the wild trout streams, and I have to ask why. Those fish are not native to those streams, they don't belong there, and if they didn't sustain themselves, I would be an advocate for allowing native species to return to these waters. I think the 1/18 regulations on our Blue Ribbon Waters is excessive for non-native fish, but I do enjoy taking a short fly rod down there and chasing them as they offer a different challenge.

[watermen]

i believe any fishery that is overfished should be shut down in order to recover. Those paricular streams with the exception of the Danforth property, which i could fish at one time, are over fished or the size of the fish in the streams would equal what they used to. yes, no rainbow is native this far east, but they are sustaining and have been present in the area since before the turn of the 20th century. i doubt warmwater species would do well in either, little smallmouth rarely venture farther than a few holes up from the confluence of little piney. The spring branches I mention are overfished from observation and the fact I used to catch large western class wild rainbows in them and they no longer exist in any reasonable numbers. As far as a small population of a unique species i agree they should be protected with stream specific regulations, however statewide slot limits aren't needed, smallmouth in missouri in general aren't overfished to the point that large representations of the species no longer exist. I fill out the MDC survey most years and answer the questions accordingly. I personally feel smallmouth mgmt is pretty balanced. If you want to catch big fish and pracice catch and release you can, if you want to catch a few eaters you can with little effort or expense. True good smallie fishing is 50 fish days with anything less than pound not counted. i've never seen this in missouri, ever. if you time the big piney or Gsconade just right after the start of a rise you can do half that. More regulations would just increase the fish size a little in most streams, and benefit just a few guys who think a 18 inch smallmouth is a much bigger deal than a 16 incher when a smaller rod would accomplish the same thing. i do agree the limit should be lowered on smallmouth in general. It's ridiculous you can only keep 15 crappie, yet you can keep 6 bass only 2 inches bigger. Trust me theres still decent sized smallmouth in the middle of the state if you look for them, but to make a fishery mostly catch and release so you can flop out anywhere and expect to catch a 3 lb smallmouth is like deer hunting behind a fence and telling everyone else they can't shoot any deer. i know it's a ramble, but I got to go down stairs and put another coat of contact cement on 4 pairs of wading boots, i could be under the influence, but I'm just trying to keep up with the law never mind the laces or tongue crease or mesh on them. There's worse issues to face than smallmouth not being the biggest they possibly can be everywhere. It's supposed to be fun as i said, the MDC is just trying to balance the fishery for everyone. i'd push to have those little creeks protected over there though.

[drew03cmc]

i believe any fishery that is overfished should be shut down in order to recover. Those paricular streams with the exception of the Danforth property, which i could fish at one time, are over fished or the size of the fish in the streams would equal what they used to. yes, no rainbow is native this far east, but they are sustaining and have been present in the area since before the turn of the 20th century. i doubt warmwater species would do well in either, little smallmouth rarely venture farther than a few holes up from the confluence of little piney. The spring branches I mention are overfished from observation and the fact I used to catch large western class wild rainbows in them and they no longer exist in any reasonable numbers. As far as a small population of a unique species i agree they should be protected with stream specific regulations, however statewide slot limits aren't needed, smallmouth in missouri in general aren't overfished to the point that large representations of the species no longer exist. I fill out the MDC survey most years and answer the questions accordingly. I personally feel smallmouth mgmt is pretty balanced. If you want to catch big fish and pracice catch and release you can, if you want to catch a few eaters you can with little effort or expense. True good smallie fishing is 50 fish days with anything less than pound not counted. i've never seen this in missouri, ever. if you time the big piney or Gsconade just right after the start of a rise you can do half that. More regulations would just increase the fish size a little in most streams, and benefit just a few guys who think a 18 inch smallmouth is a much bigger deal than a 16 incher when a smaller rod would accomplish the same thing. i do agree the limit should be lowered on smallmouth in general. It's ridiculous you can only keep 15 crappie, yet you can keep 6 bass only 2 inches bigger. Trust me theres still decent sized smallmouth in the middle of the state if you look for them, but to make a fishery mostly catch and release so you can flop out anywhere and expect to catch a 3 lb smallmouth is like deer hunting behind a fence and telling everyone else they can't shoot any deer. i know it's a ramble, but I got to go down stairs and put another coat of contact cement on 4 pairs of wading boots, i could be under the influence, but I'm just trying to keep up with the law never mind the laces or tongue crease or mesh on them. There's worse issues to face than smallmouth not being the biggest they possibly can be everywhere. It's supposed to be fun as i said, the MDC is just trying to balance the fishery for everyone. i'd push to have those little creeks protected over there though.

Again, you wish to place MORE restrictions on a non-native species? I would be all for the trout program being disbanded if it didn't fund itself. There is nothing natural about catching trout here, and as such, they have the most restrictive regulations of any fish in the state. It is not right. You can still catch big rainbows from the wild trout streams, but the habitat is not as good as it is in their native freestone streams, therefore, you are not going to catch the same amount of 12-20" trout. Any wild trout in Missouri should be looked at as unique, which they are. To increase regulation on them suggests they belong.

Nobody is advocating catch and release smallmouth fishing in Missouri, just protection on the fish we all wish to catch more of. I would love to see more fish over 15", and with a slot, it would protect those fish. It is so simple to protect these fish via regulation that it is almost foolish not to enact regulations that allow the fish over 14" the protection to help them continue to grow rather than get released into lake Crisco.

[KCRIVERRAT]

I agree with Watermen's statement that "Stream fishing is fun and that's all it needs to be". The Missouri Ozarks (and the MDC) provide plenty of different types of fishing for everyone. It's kinda weird seeing people questioning one of the best Conservation departments in the country.