Interesting Weather Record Set Today

[Tim Smith]

Justin, you really contradict yourself. Subsidy's means that the govt is spending money on something the public doesn't want, force feeding them if you will. And those subsidies expand the budget. Get it?

Jerry you may not want alternative energy but you're in a pretty small boat with that view.

We're squeezing the sponge one last time from our domestic oil reserves...the rotting oil pumps from the early 20th century in Oil City Louisiana near my home town now have tiny little new wells spaced between them...but most of those have already stopped pumping.

Fracking will carry us a little farther and ruin the ground water many of us depend on in the process.

You're welcome to your view, but it's your view. Most people want new energy sources. They've just got a 500 pound oil industry gorilla standing between them and it.

[Justin Spencer]

Justin, you really contradict yourself. Subsidy's means that the govt is spending money on something the public doesn't want, force feeding them if you will. And those subsidies expand the budget. Get it?

I get it Dick, I mean Jerry. We all want the govt. to spend money, we just have different ways we want it spent. Sorry I mixed up your name, nothing personal.

[Tim Smith]

Uh huh. So you say the numbers are fudged yet you accept the science? How many sides of your mouth do you have, Wayne?

Are you referring to me? I only have to look at a map and see the Great lakes to accept climate change. I'm told to belive it's my fault that it is changing faster.

So be specific. Greenhouse gases are irrelevant? Past warm climates don't correspond with high greenhouse gases? The sun...despite a complete lack of data to support the view...is causing the current warming? The current rate of increase isn't far greater than anything we've found in history so far? What massive transgressions in climate science have occurred that warrant you calling these scientists liars and thieves? Or is it just that anything that doesn't come directly from the free market must necessarily be shat upon?

...when the point that is beyond obvious is that nothing serious is going to get done as long as cynical are bilking the ignorant. You might know a thing or two about climate change but you're providing cover for the naive to keep their heads in the sand.

It appears to me it is the other way around Tim. Tell me what is being done for the average and below human on this earth Tim. Tell me how long do you think it will be before the avergae wage earner can afford the Volt? How long under present marketing before the average homeowner can afford solor panels or solar heating? How long before they can afford to bury their air returns for heating and cooling? Good grief we're trying to perfect technology, but not stopping to use it for fear it is outdated. The mentality that we cut down trees to build new housing additions and then name the streets after the trees is still alive and well.

Wait. Which is it? The market has to dictate everything or helping the poor dictates everything? Since you're presenting this in a dichotomy you apparently think it's one or the other. There's no way to even respond sensibly to that point in the framework you're presenting. I have numerous friends in Belize that live off the grid with solar panels and wind I can guarantee their average salary is well below the average on this forum. Tremendous advances are possible even where the technology exist right now. We both know that the economics of energy evolve from scale. A volt becomes cheap when they're selling 50,000 a year. Right now, it costs 50,000 because there's minimal demand.

And how does this related to climate science being a complete fraud again? Why are you arguing middle class economics if you think the whole game is a giant fraud. Again, how many sides of your mouth do you have?

Why are you arguing for a market solution and at the same time saying that government should be "helping" instead of hurting? Subsidies are bad? Subsidies are good? Which is it? Should the government be involved in this or not?

By your reasoning it's impossible to know if you would support continuing the tax breaks for alternative energy that are about to expire because you're seemingly on every side of this issue. The science if a fraud, the science isn't a fraud. The government should help, the government is the problem. We can't do anything. We should do something.

I don't see a consistent position to address here. I see smoke.

Romney was in Craig, Colorado last week (I was too, missed him by a day) talking about how requiring development of alternative energy was starving children and grandmothers (supported by the fossil fuel industry around Craig). Hmmm. I guess there are lots of starving people out there in the oil industry these days. Those record profits don't spread very far, huh?

I didn't hear it and i won't comment out of context.

Less carbon is a far better option than the likely disasters the other policy alternatives entail.

Of course less carbon is a good thing, but it's not the focus, the focus is to sustain an industry that can't seem to quite get off the ground.

We may indeed be too late to stop this thing but if you were arguing in good conscience you'd stick to facts instead of playing the fool.

I'm asking where's the reasonable alternative. Am I a fool?

No no no...you're not a fool. My conclusion is that you're cynical. You're just playing the fool.

You don't or at least haven't offered one positive step that has been taken to really involve the human race collectiivly in the effort. You talk of one politician, but ignore others who flaunt energy use while telling others they are a problem. I'm asking you in good conscience why is it all our efforts seem to be directed toward technologies that the avergae person can't afford?

Answered above. Economy comes from scale. Scale comes from cooperative decisions. Cooperation comes from good conscience.

I have lost faith that exists on the denial side of this argument.

[kirbydog]

Justin,

How you inject a 401K into this conversation is beyond me. For the record I don't have one but I have been working since I was

in my early teens so lets call it 50 years.

I started my own company years ago and I've worked hard and saved for a not wealthy but confortable retirement. Thank you for your concern.

And when I was born has absolutely no bearing on how I feel about this subject.

[Feathers and Fins]

Good lord almighty, When i was back in High School ( operitive word high ) I could have understood this conversation... Now im under Doctor ordered drugs threw out my back ( better high for those wondering ) and I DONT UNDERSTAND this conversation and where it has gone...

Gentlemen: Without a control group or a control frame NONE NOT ONE of any of these ( CLAIMS) of global whatever can scientifically be proven. For the love of all that is Nature look at the stupid rings in trees of the oldest living trees on earth and you will see cylces and this is all that this is...

You may now return to confusing me,,, thank you

[Tim Smith]

Good lord almighty, When i was back in High School ( operitive word high ) I could have understood this conversation... Now im under Doctor ordered drugs threw out my back ( better high for those wondering ) and I DONT UNDERSTAND this conversation and where it has gone...

Gentlemen: Without a control group or a control frame NONE NOT ONE of any of these ( CLAIMS) of global whatever can scientifically be proven. For the love of all that is Nature look at the stupid rings in trees of the oldest living trees on earth and you will see cylces and this is all that this is...

You may now return to confusing me,,, thank you

Right.

So the 97% of the National Academy of Science (the top scientists in every field across the nation) as well as every other national body of scientists in every other country accepts climate change science...

...but you wave your Farmer's Almanac...and snakes, I suppose...and dredge up an irrelevant point about experimental design (that's an N of 1, by the way, good luck framing that experiment) and you know better than all the assembled scientists in the world what is and is not valid science.

By your measure, no environmental science is science because on scales that size no experiment is possible. Good job. You just wrote off a big chunk of the fisheries science of the 20th century too.

The tree ring data currently extant is consistent with the human role in the current temperature rise. That's where the hockey stick comes from the deniers spent so much time trying to discredit.

[Feathers and Fins]

Yup ok you got it.... i put the same faith in it i do the money our goverment spent on pig fart research.

[OzarkFishman]

Don't see this thread lasting much longer ...

If it does, why don't we put forward ACTUAL DATA. I am a tweener that tries to see all the angles (no human can do such a thing).

My personal belief has no bearing on any of you, but sharing data and knowledge is fun for intelligent adults like all of us.

Tables, graphs, actual links to studies (of course one side will discredit the credibility of the experiment and visa-versa ... tis life).

If I find any mind-blowing experiments in the next few days, then I will share.

[jdmidwest]

What is causing this fricking drought, politics or global warming?

[Feathers and Fins]

What is causing this fricking drought, politics or global warming?

EWWW EWWWW MR KOTTER .....it is because of ACE has control of a big machine that has diverted the jetstream to a more northerly flow this year. ACE is in cohoots with MDWP and they have formed an evil scheme to create this drought situation to advance their plotte to charge More money to Southern California and force them to move to this area so that then we will need to build more places to hold and store water so that ACE can make the same profits MDWP does.

And the sad thing is...... I can actually beleive that is possible having dealt with both those two agencies.