Would You Support This Legislation?

[Wayne SW/MO]

I have to agree with Chief, it's not about a lot of illegal things going on, but to me it's people thinking that a public river is like a midnight bar. If they can't do it in a city park at noon, they have no business doing it on a river at noon.

The hoard that invades some rivers simply takes the experience of a nice float away and leaves nothing else to do but overindulge.

I've been on rivers like the NFOW on Saturday and while there are a lot of floaters, there's still enough room to float and enjoy it. That's not true on all rivers.

[Al Agnew]

I've been thinking about this some more. There have been some good points made against this proposal, but my real worry is that I've been floating these rivers for a long, long time, and the unruly to obnoxious to illegal behavior has steadily gotten worse over that time. And even though there are regular litter clean-ups on some rivers and the responsible canoe liveries also do some river clean-ups, the litter problem seems to be getting worse as well. There are a lot of things that are illegal that aren't being policed well, including a lot of ATV use in the stream beds as well as the drunkenness, drug use, and lewd behavior. If you ask any livery on rivers like the Meramec and Huzzah, they will tell you that it's no longer just a Saturday thing, but they are starting to see more party crowds on Fridays, Sundays, and even mid-week. Things are changing, and they aren't getting better.

AND JUST ONCE, I'D LIKE TO SEE SOMEBODY GET PROACTIVE INSTEAD OF REACTIVE ON AN ISSUE LIKE THIS. Maybe it's not too bad right now, but the trends are getting worse. Seems like that's what happens with every problem. "Ah, the pollution isn't too bad, just let it go." "Ah, a couple of those new-fangled jetboats a weekend going up and down the river aren't hurting anything, don't mess with them." "Ah, sure, a few people gig a bass now and then, but that's no reason not to extend the season and allow all the new technology." "Ah, sure, there are more people renting canoes than there used to be, but that's no reason to consider limiting the number of canoes on the rivers." "Ah, a couple of accesses have been closed off by big private landowners, but there's no need to re-affirm the public's right to use that one river."

And then, a few years down the road, the problem is obvious. "Holy crap, we got a real problem here--we gotta do something!" "But we can't do much because way too many people are making money on it and we can't cut their profits."

The Ozark streams are treasures. But that doesn't mean they will stay that way. It's going to take more volunteer efforts and more government attention to keep the problems facing them from getting worse, and all that takes money. Right now, EVERYBODY is using them pretty much without contributing anything monetarily. A very small part of the very small sales tax we all pay has bought us a few public accesses and maintained them to some extent. A very small part of our license fees go toward allowing us to fish these waters that may or may not be managed well or policed well for fish and game violators. A very tiny portion of our state taxes goes toward a few water patrol officers. And we as sportsmen are paying more than the rentees, who aren't paying the license fees.

We're going to be needing more enforcement. Sure, it won't solve all the problems, but it should curtail some of the worst ones. We're going to need more monitoring of pollution, gravel mining, etc. (The last I heard, the state DNR only has five people who can inspect gravel mines, point source pollution, etc. for the whole state, and that's only a few of those five people's duties.) We need more conservation agents to protect the fisheries. We're going to need to get more serious about working with landowners in the watersheds to try to get them to better manage the whole watersheds. It all takes money.

Sure, there are streams that are still relatively uncrowded and relatively healthy. That doesn't mean they'll always stay that way. They are going to need all those things above, too. It takes money.

The thing I hate about paying taxes is that most of the taxes I pay go to support things that I either don't care about or don't agree with. The beauty about user fees is that, as long as they are earmarked to pay for the things the user is using, those who care about the resource don't mind paying them. I'd be extremely happy if there was even a $1 per person fee on all rentals, AND a yearly sticker that is required for every private watercraft that is being used on the rivers, something on the order of $10 a year, with all the money being divided up among the agencies responsible for monitoring, managing, and policing the rivers, and with careful monitoring and reporting of just where that money is going and what it's buying.

[gotmuddy]

I quit reading halfway through the second page. I think instead of a tax on every canoe/kayak/raft/tube(which I havent seen mentioned yet), we should organize volunteer stream teams to clean up. That being said, in the summer I float NFoW(and use justin to shuttle/rent) and while I have seen some trash on the bank/water, it doesn't seem as bad as everyone says it should be.

I will definetly never get behind a limit on boats on any waterway. Your giving government too much leverage.

[Midwest troutbum]

I quit reading halfway through the second page. I think instead of a tax on every canoe/kayak/raft/tube(which I havent seen mentioned yet), we should organize volunteer stream teams to clean up. That being said, in the summer I float NFoW(and use justin to shuttle/rent) and while I have seen some trash on the bank/water, it doesn't seem as bad as everyone says it should be.

I will definetly never get behind a limit on boats on any waterway. Your giving government too much leverage.

Take a look at the first post. It clearly mentions a tax or fee on rentals on our streams. What stream section do you float? Every stream I have ever waded or floated in this state has had a good share of litter on the shores on the bottom and in the vegetation. Its not nearly as common in streams out west. Then again it seems folks are a bit more respectful to their resources out there and the enforcement isn't needed as much because the higher cost and fewer craft keeps the trashy folks out. But I too am all for additional volunteers for stream teams...maybe those convicted of littering on the rivers could be put to work.....

[jdmidwest]

I volunteer to go up and put the bikinis back on the naked chicks.

[Feathers and Fins]

Lord this all sounds like the same thing I have said on other threads, enforcement is the key and if enough complaints got registered then enforcement would be forced to act. Instead of taxing people ( think thats done enough and to death ) how about raising all heck with the city and county to the point they actually do send out the law.

Its not about Bass or Trout or Blugill or floaters swimmers etc its about RESPECT for others! If the behavior went on on Upper Taneycomo I can promise MDC would be all over it and stop it fast.

We dont need another tax we need people to either learn respect for others or face heavy fines.

[Midwest troutbum]

Lord this all sounds like the same thing I have said on other threads, enforcement is the key and if enough complaints got registered then enforcement would be forced to act. Instead of taxing people ( think thats done enough and to death ) how about raising all heck with the city and county to the point they actually do send out the law.

Its not about Bass or Trout or Blugill or floaters swimmers etc its about RESPECT for others! If the behavior went on on Upper Taneycomo I can promise MDC would be all over it and stop it fast.

We dont need another tax we need people to either learn respect for others or face heavy fines.

Amen. That about sums it up.

[Wayne SW/MO]

we should organize volunteer stream teams to clean up.

Like Stream Team?

The Missouri Stream Teams shouldn't be picking up a lot of trash, but they are. I don't think a tax is the way to go, but more should be done.

You put on a tax and by the time you pay for collection, administrating it, and everything else that the gubmit deducts you would be lucky to see 10 cents on the dollar applied.

[hank franklin]

The drunks are taking over our rivers. Duh. Floats are R-rated if not worse. Is that cool with everybody? Not me.

The outfitters who make a living off it contribute to the problem. Parties are good business. Yeah, maybe. But over time your business will come down to catering to drunks. Have fun with that.

Reminds me of smoking bans. Bar owners say can't do it, will hurt my business. They don't know there's a whole customer base out there that won't go to your bar because it's a smoke-den. Once the smoke clears, voila, new business enters. Same with rivers. If you have a quality more or less wholesome experience the customers will come. I will NEVER go to your place Justin Spencer because you cater to drunks. Sorry. I will go to the state or federal parks instead. If you want to grow old catering to drunk idiots have fun with that.

[Feathers and Fins]

Hank I dont know Justin from Jack, but I think you are being to harsh on him, he has no control over the people that act that way. He cant tell them what to do anymore than you can. The only ones that can is LEO. He has to make a living just like anyone.

I can tell you of a place in FL that was known for the behavior you are against. Enough people in the county made a big enough stink and it was stopped by the Law being out there, two weeks of heavy patrol and citations not warning written stopped it fast. Now the place is much better and its because the PEOPLE who party there enforce a RESPECT code on eachother as they dont want the green jeans squad back out there.