God Bless The Kentucky Bass

[Al Agnew]

Define "lost"...and define "water system". Are there still smallmouth in the lower Meramec? Yes. Maybe 10% of the pre-spotted bass numbers below the mouth of the Bourbeuse. Maybe 25% of what there was between St. Clair and the Bourbeuse. On lower Big River below Morse Mill, less than 5% of pre-spotted bass numbers. On the lower Bourbeuse below Union, about the same. On the lower Gasconade, similar percentages. So no, spots have not completely replaced smallmouth and have not taken over an entire river system (although on the entire length of Big River, there are probably now more spots than smallmouth overall, just more smallmouth toward the upper end offset by more spots in the lower half). The crux of the matter is, how has the quality of the fishery fared? When you reduce smallmouth populations by a significant percentage, you also reduce the numbers of bigger smallmouth by a similar percentage. So that's the first problem--far fewer quality smallmouth. The second problem--they have been replaced by large numbers of much smaller average spotted bass. You've replaced a real quality smallmouth fishery with good numbers and good size structure, with a fishery dominated by small spotted bass. Similar numbers of bass overall, but the average size of the bass has gone down considerably.

I can take you on a float trip on one of my favorite stretches of Big River, and if you're used to the kind of mixed bag fisheries that Chief regularly fishes, you'll think the fishing is pretty good. You'll probably catch more than 50 bass in an average day. Nearly half of them will be spotted bass, with an average size of about 10 inches and a top end size of about 15 inches. A little less than half with be smallmouth, with an average size of about 11 inches and with a few over 16 inches. The rest will be largemouth, just as they always were. Good fishing? Yeah. But before the spotted bass invaded, you'd have still caught over 50 bass, 80-90% would have been smallmouth, you'd have caught more than twice as many BASS over 12 inches, and more than twice as many over 16 inches. that's what my records show.

I've been accused many times of hating spotted bass. I don't. I like them just fine where they are native. And they're fun to catch no matter where you find them, and Chief is right in the original post that sometimes they are active when the other bass aren't, and have livened a few slow days for me even on my favorite Meramec Basin rivers. But I know what the lower Meramec and Big River were like before the spots invaded, and it saddens me to see the differences in the quality of the angling on these streams now.

[moguy1973]

Al, do you think the poorer water quality in the lower Bourbouse, Big, and Meramec that has come about over the years has affected the smallmouth population as much as the spots invading them has? Or do you think that is a contributing factor?

[joeD]

Since it's an election year, after a presidential debate, let's, for once, tell the truth.

I want one person on this forum to come clean and say that he purposely fishes for spotted bass on a "smallmouth" stream. For pleasure. As a target.

Thought so.

[Chief Grey Bear]

Define "lost"...and define "water system".

Lost would be the same as "displaced".

Are there still smallmouth in the lower Meramec? Yes. Maybe 10% of the pre-spotted bass numbers below the mouth of the Bourbeuse. Maybe 25% of what there was between St. Clair and the Bourbeuse. On lower Big River below Morse Mill, less than 5% of pre-spotted bass numbers. On the lower Bourbeuse below Union, about the same. On the lower Gasconade, similar percentages.

Those are some pretty wild numbers being tossed out. The only way to really know is for the MDC to electroshock it. We need some hard scientific data, not perceptions. Perceptions can change from day to day. I recall a report you posted from earlier this year that had something along the line of 70% smallmouth, 20% largemouth, and 10% spots. You also stated that you thought the tide had turned and the smallmouth was making a come back.

So no, spots have not completely replaced smallmouth and have not taken over an entire river system (although on the entire length of Big River, there are probably now more spots than smallmouth overall, just more smallmouth toward the upper end offset by more spots in the lower half). The crux of the matter is, how has the quality of the fishery fared? When you reduce smallmouth populations by a significant percentage, you also reduce the numbers of bigger smallmouth by a similar percentage. So that's the first problem--far fewer quality smallmouth. The second problem--they have been replaced by large numbers of much smaller average spotted bass. You've replaced a real quality smallmouth fishery with good numbers and good size structure, with a fishery dominated by small spotted bass. Similar numbers of bass overall, but the average size of the bass has gone down considerably.

Has there been any population studies in the last few years?? Sounds like a great project. I would like to see a five year study that could shed some light on what the trends are.

I can take you on a float trip on one of my favorite stretches of Big River, and if you're used to the kind of mixed bag fisheries that Chief regularly fishes, you'll think the fishing is pretty good. You'll probably catch more than 50 bass in an average day. Nearly half of them will be spotted bass, with an average size of about 10 inches and a top end size of about 15 inches. A little less than half with be smallmouth, with an average size of about 11 inches and with a few over 16 inches. The rest will be largemouth, just as they always were. Good fishing? Yeah. But before the spotted bass invaded, you'd have still caught over 50 bass, 80-90% would have been smallmouth, you'd have caught more than twice as many BASS over 12 inches, and more than twice as many over 16 inches. that's what my records show.

Of all of the reports you guy's have posted from those waters this year, I don't recall one mention of spots. I would assume that if 50% or more of your catch is spots, someone would had said so.*

* Whoop's. Just read Blazerman's report.

And what is wrong with "mixed bag fisheries"? You make is sound as if it is kind of low life fishing. I know you have only fished this are once or twice, but there are some quality smallmouth streams here that rival any stream in the state with numbers. I won't even try to pretrend that these stream can compare on size though. Your streams definetly have some super nice fish.

I've been accused many times of hating spotted bass. I don't. I like them just fine where they are native.

You know, with all this winter bass migration, maybe they took a wrong turn.

And they're fun to catch no matter where you find them, and Chief is right in the original post that sometimes they are active when the other bass aren't, and have livened a few slow days for me even on my favorite Meramec Basin rivers. But I know what the lower Meramec and Big River were like before the spots invaded, and it saddens me to see the differences in the quality of the angling on these streams now.

The Mother Ship is always evolving and not always for the better, according to us.

[Flysmallie]

Since it's an election year, after a presidential debate, let's, for once, tell the truth.

I want one person on this forum to come clean and say that he purposely fishes for spotted bass on a "smallmouth" stream. For pleasure. As a target.

Thought so.

Done it. It happens. I'm an equal opportunity basser.

Would I rather catch a smallmouth? Well hell yeah, but I don't mind catching what's available. And not all of our streams are full of baby spots, in some rivers they actually grow up.

[Guest]

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[Blazerman]

I am one of the folks who target spotted bass in the river.

From the MDC website

Spotted bass

Since the mid-1980s, Conservation Department fisheries biologists have noticed that spotted (Kentucky) bass have increased dramatically in portions of the Meramec, Big and Bourbeuse rivers where they were historically absent. In those rivers, spotted bass rarely seem to reach the 12-inch length limit, grow slowly and have been shown to compete and hybridize with native smallmouth bass.

While there is no doubt that smallmouth have been affected by habitat alterations, the continual march of spotted bass further upstream each year concerned biologists. Smallmouth bass numbers appear to have declined in many areas and biologists believe spotted bass may be part of the reason.

In response, the Conservation Department removed the minimum length limit on spotted bass and increased the daily limit to 12. Anglers in these three rivers can help slow the increase of spotted bass by learning spotted bass identification and taking some home.

Because of these management changes by MDC I now make an effort to target spotted bass when fishing on the Meramec. I do this by fishing woody cover in the longer slower pools using mostly a jig and trailer or spinnerbait.

I have found I can flip or pitch my jig/trailer and catch mostly spots by target laydowns and root balls in slower pools.

I do this because I like to eat them and in my opinion they are just as good to eat as crappie.

I still catch the occasional smallmouth and when I do they are normally bigger older fish which are a blast to catch and they always released

[Bird Watcher]

Since it's an election year, after a presidential debate, let's, for once, tell the truth.

I want one person on this forum to come clean and say that he purposely fishes for spotted bass on a "smallmouth" stream. For pleasure. As a target.

Thought so.

I don't know exactly what you mean by "purposely', but if I see a big one I will definitely try to catch it. I very rarely set out to fish for any type of Black Bass these days, but if I see a big 3# plus Kentucky while I'm fishing, I'll "purposely" to get it to bite every time.

[Chief Grey Bear]

Spotted bass were first collected in Big River by Mills et al. (1978), which was the first report of spotted bass in the Meramec River basin. Spotted bass were not collected again until 1987 (unpublished data, K. Meneau, MDC). Since then, spotted bass have greatly increased their numbers below RM 20 (becoming the dominant black bass) and expanded their range above RM 60. (unpublished data, K. Meneau, MDC). Also, genetic tests have revealed that some spotted bass/smallmouth bass hybridization has taken place (unpublished data, K. Meneau, MDC). Spotted bass may have entered the Meramec River basin as a result of stockings in the Osage River basin before 1940 or in Missouri River tributaries in the 1960s (Pflieger 1975). http://mdc.mo.gov/landwater-care/stream-and-watershed-management/missouri-watersheds/big-river/biotic-community

I am one of the folks who target spotted bass in the river. From the MDC website Spotted bass Since the mid-1980s, Conservation Department fisheries biologists have noticed that spotted (Kentucky) bass have increased dramatically in portions of the Meramec, Big and Bourbeuse rivers where they were historically absent. In those rivers, spotted bass rarely seem to reach the 12-inch length limit, grow slowly and have been shown to compete and hybridize with native smallmouth bass. While there is no doubt that smallmouth have been affected by habitat alterations, the continual march of spotted bass further upstream each year concerned biologists. Smallmouth bass numbers appear to have declined in many areas and biologists believe spotted bass may be part of the reason. In response, the Conservation Department removed the minimum length limit on spotted bass and increased the daily limit to 12. Anglers in these three rivers can help slow the increase of spotted bass by learning spotted bass identification and taking some home. Because of these management changes by MDC I now make an effort to target spotted bass when fishing on the Meramec. I do this by fishing woody cover in the longer slower pools using mostly a jig and trailer or spinnerbait. I have found I can flip or pitch my jig/trailer and catch mostly spots by target laydowns and root balls in slower pools. I do this because I like to eat them and in my opinion they are just as good to eat as crappie. I still catch the occasional smallmouth and when I do they are normally bigger older fish which are a blast to catch and they always released

I don't know of anyone that is denying that spots are there. But I do have trouble digesting that the spots are the sole blame for a 75%, 90% and 95% reduction in smallmouth population. If that was the case, I am more than positive that the MDC would have instituted a no harvest rule on smallmouth. And there would be an all out effort to determine the root cause. Those are some huge numbers.

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