Hey Al - Is Creek Fishing Done

[Chief Grey Bear]

Actually, studies of fish in more northern rivers show mass migrations of 30 miles or more...talking about studies in Minnesota streams, if I'm not mistaken.

And there are also studies from Wisconsin that say they only move about 3 miles if at all. You can find studies that say it has more to do with latitude. Othes still say it is trigged by the equinox. And you can find reports that say they don't move all and still more say it depends on the size of the river. You can find studies from Canada that go both ways. There are also studies that suggest they migrate in the spring to spawn. Maybe that is what you saw.

But before Missouri jumps on the migration bandwagon, it will have to do more than tag a handfull of brownies from a couple of streams with money tags and even less with radio-telemetry and then study it for a year.

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[drew03cmc]

Yes, in ONE year, also, the warmest year on record, fish moved Andy. Guess what, the water in Missouri doesn't get as cold as it does in Minnesota, Ontario or Wisconsin. That is a product of latitude. When the study in the Ozarks is concluded, you can use that study as evidence, but for right now, we cannot judge anything from that study. One year, a sample does not make. The sample size isn't sufficient to draw a single conclusion. If the fish are migrating away, where do fish in the Elk go in the winter? Grand Lake? Oklahoma has NO record of smallmouth bass in Grand Lake, sans ONE monster fish that was caught this year, which is likely a renegade from the Elk or Spring River. One fish does not a population indicate. In the streams in the Ozarks, do they migrate to lakes? Do they migrate downstream only to return to their home pools? Do they migrate to spring holes? Do they migrate to find food or just cover? There are so many questions that must be answered before it can be concluded that they do migrate in the winter. Some do move from their summer haunts to a winter hole, but there is no doubt that fish remain in the same areas in the winter, but in deeper water. Come fish Shoal Creek in the winter and you will see what we mean by this. Spring River is the same way, you can find fish in the same areas that you find them in during the summer. I find it hard to believe that there is such a difference between Shoal Creek and the Huzzah or Courtois as they are about the same size. Perhaps it is that Neoshos don't migrate, but Northerns do, but again, I am not a scientist.

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[Gavin]

Great info Andy...I'm sure it varies by watershed.

Its been awhile since I've floated the Huzzah in the winter but you can see bottom in 10' of water easilly...and you rarely see any fish. That creek flows pretty fast, lacks deep boulder habitat, and it doesnt have any major springs on it. So that might have something to do with it. There is lots of slow flow, spring seeps, and deep big boulder habitat on the Meramec though.

Think the situation might be different on Shoal...I've never visitied...but I've thought about it and done some research...There are tons of springs on the Shoal Creek drainage, plus its impouded for Joplin's water supply. Fish might not have to move very far to find a spot to winter over. Wonder if they stack up in the water supply lake? Or at the spillway?

[Guest]

Just so you know. I grew up about 3/4 of the way up the state of IL. Most of the stream smallmouth in that area would move to wintering holes as well. The wintering holes were not nearly as plentiful as they are in a lot of the ozark streams that I fish, but they were there like clockwork every fall by the end of October. If you could find a deep hole below a dam, game on. I have heard similar things from my fisheries friends in MN and Iowa.

I live on a smallmouth stream that feeds into a larger river. (Similar to Indian Creek running into the Elk.)

Just upstream of the confluence is a low water dam, it creates a large river pool thats about a mile in length.

Im 4 miles upstream of that dam. That big pool is the perfect wintering habitat.

These fish vanished a few weeks ago, right after the river came up a few feet.

They aren't coming back until April.

Guess how I know?

I live there and fish there.

All you have to do, is look down in the water every afternoon.

There are zero fish in that midsized pool right now.

They migrated back downstream.

[Al Agnew]

Drew, I think we're all saying that they probably don't all migrate, even in the streams with poorer wintering habitat. But I suspect Gavin is right, streams like Shoal Creek, with lots of springs and no good wintering places downstream, are a lot different than streams like Courtois and Huzzah, without many springs, without good wintering habitat, and WITH good wintering habitat downstream on the Meramec.

The Ozark streams don't get as cold as those up north, but even a fairly heavily spring-fed stream like the Meramec will get down into the low to mid-30s during a winter cold spell. That's cold enough that a fish like a smallmouth will be exceedingly sluggish, and probably unable to hold position for long in strong current, nor swim fast enough for long enough to escape an otter in a somewhat constricted place such as even the deeper pools are on smaller streams. It's not like they can just hang in the spots they hang in the summer. Those fish have to move to somewhere that they can have a better chance of surviving. I'm sure some find sanctuary in places we probably wouldn't suspect, but in reality on many streams there just aren't many such places, spots where they can get far back under heavy cover, completely hidden and out of any kind of strong current. There are more such places on the bigger rivers, and there are also more deep pools, with the depth alone being a great form of winter cover.

I know we don't have all the answers. There are lots of unanswered questions. I suspect, but don't know, that it may even be a function of genetics, with some fish pre-disposed to move longer distances because their parent fish moved long distances, while other fish are homebodies because their parents were homebodies. And what about years like this one, when the water in some of the smaller streams was so low that you wouldn't think that the fish would be able to move through the riffles?

But there are some things that are certain. Some fish move long distances in the winter. A lot just seem to disappear. Some hang in the bigger holes in smaller streams. Some move to spring holes. Some move to reservoirs. Some move to the nearest deep pool, but some pass up the nearest deep pool and go to another wintering spot miles away. Some definitely move upstream in the spring, either to spawn or because they are going to where they will spend the summer. Which means that they have to move back downstream sometime in the summer or fall.

And, of course, so far we've mainly been talking about smallmouth. What about largemouth and spotted bass on the same streams? I know that largemouth move to very slack water, but I've also caught bunches of them schooled up in deeper pools. Spotted bass seem to move less in the winter, and are more likely to be found in a little more current and a little shallower water.

To me, this is a fascinating topic, partly BECAUSE we don't have all, or maybe even half, the answers. It's still largely a mystery where these fish go.

[Chief Grey Bear]

Fish don't move for the sake of moving, they move for habitat or forage needs. Lots of studies out there that show mass migrations of smallies. The migration is triggered by a need for winter habitat, which is protection from high flows during cold temperatures and protection from predation.

You are aware that of the "studies" you linked, Three of the four, you linked the same one twice, stated that the "migration" is a spring spawning migration and not a winter migration??? And one stated "..they fatten up and hunker down..." doesn't sound like they are going anywhere.

Are you telling me you catch smallmouth in riffles year round?

Sure don't. Unless it is a relativly small creek, 95% of the brownies I catch in these waters don't come from riffles. Year round.

[Chief Grey Bear]

Drew, I think we're all saying that they probably don't all migrate, even in the streams with poorer wintering habitat. But I suspect Gavin is right, streams like Shoal Creek, with lots of springs and no good wintering places downstream, are a lot different than streams like Courtois and Huzzah, without many springs, without good wintering habitat, and WITH good wintering habitat downstream on the Meramec.

Unless the spring is pumping 1000 gallons a minute or more, it is not going to have much effect. Anything less and the thermal impact is minimal at best and only within very close proximity to the source. And even at that rate or more, the thermal impact will dissipate very rapidly.

The Ozark streams don't get as cold as those up north, but even a fairly heavily spring-fed stream like the Meramec will get down into the low to mid-30s during a winter cold spell. That's cold enough that a fish like a smallmouth will be exceedingly sluggish, and probably unable to hold position for long in strong current, nor swim fast enough for long enough to escape an otter in a somewhat constricted place such as even the deeper pools are on smaller streams. It's not like they can just hang in the spots they hang in the summer. Those fish have to move to somewhere that they can have a better chance of surviving. I'm sure some find sanctuary in places we probably wouldn't suspect, but in reality on many streams there just aren't many such places, spots where they can get far back under heavy cover, completely hidden and out of any kind of strong current. There are more such places on the bigger rivers, and there are also more deep pools, with the depth alone being a great form of winter cover.

I used to be a firm believer that you had to find the deepest holes in the winter to fish because that is what I was taught. But over time I have found time and time again fish hanging in the same areas that I find them in summer. Now of course not always in open water, but I have found them there occasionally. That is usually associated with a warming trend with lots of sunshine. But I can still find them in pools of only 6 feet deep next to some type of structure, more often then not logs and root wads.

I know we don't have all the answers. There are lots of unanswered questions. I suspect, but don't know, that it may even be a function of genetics, with some fish pre-disposed to move longer distances because their parent fish moved long distances, while other fish are homebodies because their parents were homebodies. And what about years like this one, when the water in some of the smaller streams was so low that you wouldn't think that the fish would be able to move through the riffles?

What about all the mill dams? Low water crossings?? There are a lot of barriers out there.

But there are some things that are certain. Some fish move long distances in the winter. A lot just seem to disappear. Some hang in the bigger holes in smaller streams. Some move to spring holes. Some move to reservoirs. Some move to the nearest deep pool, but some pass up the nearest deep pool and go to another wintering spot miles away. Some definitely move upstream in the spring, either to spawn or because they are going to where they will spend the summer. Which means that they have to move back downstream sometime in the summer or fall.

I think there are more there then we realize.

But didn't the tagged fish that were found long distances from the initial tagging area, move during the summer?? How do we know that the area they were tagged in was their home area??? Maybe some fish are just always on the move. I recall a spoonbill being tagged in the lower Grand River in Oklahoma being found a year or two later or three in the Missouri River in S. Dakota. Does that mean that all Spoonbill migrate?? Certainly not. Of course they are spawn migraters.

And, of course, so far we've mainly been talking about smallmouth. What about largemouth and spotted bass on the same streams? I know that largemouth move to very slack water, but I've also caught bunches of them schooled up in deeper pools. Spotted bass seem to move less in the winter, and are more likely to be found in a little more current and a little shallower water.

I asked that same question a few months ago. Didn't get any response.

To me, this is a fascinating topic, partly BECAUSE we don't have all, or maybe even half, the answers. It's still largely a mystery where these fish go.

If they go. I agree it is a fascinating subject. But again, I say more fish need to be tagged with radio-telemetry in more rivers. It would be interesting to tag a number of fish in the 10-13, 14-17, 18-21 range and see what each group does. Also do in it in differing stream sizes. How do north flowing streams compare to south flowing? And east flowing to west flowing? And it needs to be a multi year study.