Gloom And Doom Hits Home.

[mixermarkb]

Me too. I'd much rather see real reform to take money out of the election process than term limits. I've always thought the system was designed so that WE the voter would be all the term limits ever needed. However, with all the gerrymandering and assorted other crap going on, I'll get on the term limit train.

[Flyflinger]

I haven't read the whole thread so I'm sure someone pointed this out, but your extremist logic is premised upon an entirely false assumption - that you have taxes extracted from you at the barrell of a gun. The first thought that comes to mind is move. But if you want to live in this wonderful land of opportunity, you can easily get by without paying taxes. First, stop earning an income. If you don't earn an income, you don't pay income taxes. Easy. There are lots of folks that do it. There's a whole commune just outside of West Fork that does it. That's really the easiest part. Since you don't earn an income, you're unlikely to leave behind the $5 mil or so that's required for estate taxes to kick in, so that's not an issue.

Now to the tougher ones...excise taxes. You're going to have to not buy anything. Sure, you're going to need some things, but perhaps you can whittle or something and trade your wares for what you need. Fuels, electricity, tobacco, alcohol, etc. You're not going to have electricity anyway so that won't be an issue. You will have to do some walking, or perhaps you can hitchike with one of us who is willing to pay taxes to support infrastructure like roads, traffic control devices, etc. You're going to have to grow your own tobacco and dope and make your own alcohol...all of which you are free to do without paying excise taxes.

The state taxes are next. We've already covered income tax. The next two are sales and property. Sales is pretty much the same as excise. You just can't buy retail. You can barter, trade your wares for cash (or as the folks I know who share your ideology call cage, FRN's [federal reserve notes]), etc. So sales tax isn't really that difficult to avoid. Hell, you can even buy a car of a certain value and not worry about it (not that you'll have gas to use with it...but maybe you can start making ethanol...darn, that 's not a bad idea, you might just be able to make this work).

The real kicker is property taxes. You could live off the rest of us and set up a tent in the national forrest, but at some point you're going to want a little holler to call your own. Remember, this is on the state side and not the federal side, but it's still a "tax." I'm sure you can homestead a small patch of woods and be totally exempt from property tax. But it wouldn't get you much. Your better option is going to be to move to one of the states that don't have property taxes. I believe those exist, but maybe not. But some states have pretty generous homestead exemptions. In Washington State for example, you won't owe a dime in property taxes if you don't make over a certain amount of money, which you won't!

The thing is, living without paying taxes is completely do-able. You can do it right here in the good old U S of A. While you're doing it, you'll be very glad that the rest of us pay taxes for things such as law enforcement, sanitation, public land (where you'll be living), roads for you to walk and hitch a ride on, a military to ward off invading nations - however unlikely, and even public assistance. The same public assistance that will keep others from living in your patch of woods and keep them from having to steal your handy-work by force. If you get hurt or sick, the rest of us will pay for you to get better - though not as good as you'd get if you were working and could afford private insurance.

There are definitely valid points to be made in the realm of what things are government functions and what things aren't. If you told me that it wasn't the federal government's responsibility to mandate insurance coverage, provide unemployment benefits for those that lose their jobs, or make sure that old people receive social security benefits, you would have a valid point. If you told me that it wasn't the federal government's responsibility to regulate interstate commerce, maintain a standing military (regardless of size), or provide care and social security benefits to orphans who lose their parents, then you would be a little whacky but you would still at least have a logical argument to make. But for someone who uses a computer to post on a website about fishing for stocked fish in public waters, presumably with a job and a house with a car or two in the garage, who no doubt receives and sends mail and might even have children in school to say that there is no justification for taxes and only brute force "extracts" them is just REALLY out in left field man.

Your state worship is strong. I feel sorry for you.

Answer a quick question...please... Do you own yourself?

[Flyflinger]

Wait....this is a joke, right? Are you saying that the slave utilizing cotton farmers were right to resisit abolition? Are you saying that we really need some slaves since that's how it's been for a long time? Or are you saying that...I honestly can't think of anything you could possibly be saying that would make sense. Are you saying that we're all slaves to some greater evil or something?\

Things change. Eventually you don't need a man to pick cotton. I.....I mean...you just....what the heck are you talking about?

Can't help you man...your state worship is to deeply entrenched. I'm not going to try and explain the analogy.

[Flyflinger]

Honestly I am starting to believe that is indeed the case.

So much of what seems totally absurd to ME is accepted and defended widely by people who should be way smarter than I am. So I am left to assume that there must be pertinent elements involved that I am just not aware of.

I doubt it. The thing is...it is absurd. That's just it.....any attempt to apply logical, critical thinking skills into the system (state) will leave your head whirling. Which is the point of it all.

"A great industrial nation is controlled by it's system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated governments in the world--no longer a government of free opinion, no longer a government by conviction and vote of the majority, but a government by the opinion and duress of small groups of dominant men." — President Woodrow Wilson

[hoglaw]

Can't help you man...your state worship is to deeply entrenched. I'm not going to try and explain the analogy.

Well humor a poor entrenched sheep like me.

I guess I did call your idealogy a little crazy so a personal attack is probably fair play. But it seems to me that you just rattle off quotes and statements bordering on anarchy without any effort to actually explain them. Humor me. I'm obviously not as informed as you are, so please explain the relevance of that quote and help me understand why you feel the way you do. I'm open minded. You might be surprised.

Is it your position that we should pay taxes? Less taxes? No taxes? Are there certain functions of government that you don't think are proper government functions? You sound a bit like a states' rights type guy who thinks that a lot of the current federal government functions weren't delegated to it by the states, but then you say things that are all-encompassing. I believe you are sincere and not just trolling, but you haven't said much of anything to support what you say. You haven't suggested an alternative other than to call us all cows, sheep, or whatever.

I guess I do have a pretty simple frame of mind. I see the DOW at an all time high. Today, the market continued its rally based on employment statistics. There are still folks who are so willfully ignorant that they will say we are in a "recession," but all of the leading economic indicators say we're doing better than we ever have. It's not government double-speak either. It's reality. We still have major debt and budget issues to face, and idealogical battles to fight in that regard. But I can live where I want, do the work I want to do, fish where I want, buy the boats I want, drive the truck I want, take the vaccations I want, and live as comfortably as I want. I've done well in the market over the last couple of years. I'm a little skeptical because it doesn't all feel right, so I've given up some growth in exchange for buying puts on leveraged index funds since I feel like we're going to get a decent correction at some point between now and October.

I grew up in a family that paid taxes. I went to a public land grant university for eight years. I worked hard and got head-hunted twice because of my work. I can literally do anything I want to do. I guess I don't want to kill people, steal stuff, or evade taxes, so in my mind that makes me pretty free. I hate paying taxes as much as the next guy...particularly 7.65% of my income to subsidize the retirement and medical care of older people. But in the grand scheme of things, the United States is really a pretty great place to live. Maybe that means I'm just getting led around like livestock, but I guess I'll take the country club, boating, fishing, and secure retirement lifestyle that goes with it. If the zombie apocalypse kicks off or the "government" starts attacking me with drones in the next few decades, then I suppose you can tell me you told me so.

[fishinwrench]

And you don't feel that the reason your (and my) head is

left spinning MIGHT BE because there are unknown facts that you (and me) are not considering?

How could you and I know all the determining factors? All WE know is what we have either heard on the news, saw on the web, or heard someone else say. And I'm willing to bet that there are additional details in every situation.....AND a bunch of ENTIRE "situations" that we haven't even been made aware of yet.

When someone, or a group of someones whom you know are not bug-nutty-batshit-crazy people, do or say bug-nutty-batshit-crazy stuff, you just gotta assume that there are genuinely good reasons why.

[Flyflinger]

Well humor a poor entrenched sheep like me.

I guess I did call your idealogy a little crazy so a personal attack is probably fair play. But it seems to me that you just rattle off quotes and statements bordering on anarchy without any effort to actually explain them. Humor me. I'm obviously not as informed as you are, so please explain the relevance of that quote and help me understand why you feel the way you do. I'm open minded. You might be surprised.

Is it your position that we should pay taxes? Less taxes? No taxes? Are there certain functions of government that you don't think are proper government functions? You sound a bit like a states' rights type guy who thinks that a lot of the current federal government functions weren't delegated to it by the states, but then you say things that are all-encompassing. I believe you are sincere and not just trolling, but you haven't said much of anything to support what you say. You haven't suggested an alternative other than to call us all cows, sheep, or whatever.

I guess I do have a pretty simple frame of mind. I see the DOW at an all time high. Today, the market continued its rally based on employment statistics. There are still folks who are so willfully ignorant that they will say we are in a "recession," but all of the leading economic indicators say we're doing better than we ever have. It's not government double-speak either. It's reality. We still have major debt and budget issues to face, and idealogical battles to fight in that regard. But I can live where I want, do the work I want to do, fish where I want, buy the boats I want, drive the truck I want, take the vaccations I want, and live as comfortably as I want. I've done well in the market over the last couple of years. I'm a little skeptical because it doesn't all feel right, so I've given up some growth in exchange for buying puts on leveraged index funds since I feel like we're going to get a decent correction at some point between now and October.

I grew up in a family that paid taxes. I went to a public land grant university for eight years. I worked hard and got head-hunted twice because of my work. I can literally do anything I want to do. I guess I don't want to kill people, steal stuff, or evade taxes, so in my mind that makes me pretty free. I hate paying taxes as much as the next guy...particularly 7.65% of my income to subsidize the retirement and medical care of older people. But in the grand scheme of things, the United States is really a pretty great place to live. Maybe that means I'm just getting led around like livestock, but I guess I'll take the country club, boating, fishing, and secure retirement lifestyle that goes with it. If the zombie apocalypse kicks off or the "government" starts attacking me with drones in the next few decades, then I suppose you can tell me you told me so.

Ok...give me a sec. I'm going to try and break it down. I hit and run on the keyboard mainly because I hate typing. I just want to spark some honest thought...I have no interest in the regurgitation of what the media/government tells people. So check back in a bit. I am going to cut and paste from your above comment, with answers.

[Flyflinger]

And you don't feel that the reason your (and my) head is

left spinning MIGHT BE because there are unknown facts that you (and me) are not considering?

How could you and I know all the determining factors? All WE know is what we have either heard on the news, saw on the web, or heard someone else say. And I'm willing to bet that there are additional details in every situation.....AND a bunch of ENTIRE "situations" that we haven't even been made aware of yet.

When someone, or a group of someones whom you know are not bug-nutty-batshit-crazy people, do or say bug-nutty-batshit-crazy stuff, you just gotta assume that there are genuinely good reasons why.

I don't think from thatb perspective...I come from a clarity of what real freedom is...all the rest is just noise.

[Flyflinger]

"I guess I did call your idealogy a little crazy so a personal attack is probably fair play."

It's not an ideology. Just truth. If the facts would point me in another direction I would gladly go where they lead.

"But it seems to me that you just rattle off quotes and statements bordering on anarchy without any effort to actually explain them. Humor me. I'm obviously not as informed as you are, so please explain the relevance of that quote and help me understand why you feel the way you do. I'm open minded. You might be surprised."

Yes, I believe in no rulers....I don't explain because I cannot compress the last 6 years of my thought process into a quick blurb. The relevance of the quote is to point people in the direction of the REAL problem in this country...and it has nothing to do with how we spend the money.

Is it your position that we should pay taxes?

No Taxes...taxes are force...force is wrong unless in self defense.

Are there certain functions of government that you don't think are proper government functions?

No government

I believe you are sincere and not just trolling, but you haven't said much of anything to support what you say.

I couldn't be more sincere, but I am a kinda smart butt.

You haven't suggested an alternative other than to call us all cows, sheep, or whatever.

Once again can't compress 6 years into a comment...but there is an exhaustive amount of literature on the alternatives. No, I am not a hippy-dippy, commune...can't we all just love...kinda guy.

I see the DOW at an all time high.

There is no volume in the market...ie. NO COMMITMENT....this is all smoke and mirrors as the FED pumps liquidity into the system.

Today, the market continued its rally based on employment statistics.

That's what the media tells you...this is a lie. Think for yourself.

There are still folks who are so willfully ignorant that they will say we are in a "recession," but all of the leading economic indicators say we're doing better than we ever have.

There are no real economic factors that tell me this...the DOW is not an economic factor...hasn't been since the mid-80's. Please, don't tell me that you think inflation is running at 2%...it is not. Better than we ever had? We are at a 20 year low in wage earning.

It's not government double-speak either. It's reality. We still have major debt and budget issues to face, and ideological battles to fight in that regard.

It is all government double speak. We cannot and will not ever pay down the debt...ever. Its a mathematical impossibility. I know that you have no idea what I am talking about...so you will have to research "fractional reserve banking"....and all the while....when we debate if we should cut this...raise that tax....pass this or that law...the debt keeps mounting and mounting. Interest rates are running like 2.5%.....an all time low. What happens to the interest payments of this nation when the rates rise to say 5%? Or near 20% like in the 80's? Hmmmmmm....we will default as a nation.

But I can live where I want, do the work I want to do, fish where I want, buy the boats I want, drive the truck I want, take the vacations I want, and live as comfortably as I want.

Free range cattle produce more milk.

I've done well in the market over the last couple of years. I'm a little skeptical because it doesn't all feel right, so I've given up some growth in exchange for buying puts on leveraged index funds since I feel like we're going to get a decent correction at some point between now and October.

"The few who understand the system, will either be so interested from it's profits or so dependant on it's favors, that there will be no opposition from that class." -- Rothschild Brothers of London, 1863

I grew up in a family that paid taxes.

Taxes are not paid...they are extracted.

I worked hard and got head-hunted twice because of my work. I can literally do anything I want to do. I guess I don't want to kill people, steal stuff, or evade taxes, so in my mind that makes me pretty free. I hate paying taxes as much as the next guy...particularly 7.65% of my income to subsidize the retirement and medical care of older people. But in the grand scheme of things, the United States is really a pretty great place to live. Maybe that means I'm just getting led around like livestock, but I guess I'll take the country club, boating, fishing, and secure retirement lifestyle that goes with it.

This is just you justify the corrupt/murdering/robbing system...because...hey you're comfortable.

If the zombie apocalypse kicks off or the "government" starts attacking me with drones in the next few decades, then I suppose you can tell me you told me so.

The government has already killed Americans with drones....where have you been? The country club? One of which was only 16 years old...born in Colorado.

If you really want to start thinking for yourself I suggest you start here:

[Flyflinger]

I think America would be better off with more lawyers. We need more laws to keep people in line, to keep America "lawful." To do the "right" thing. Therefore, the need for more attorneys is of utmost importance. Who will legislate, if not lawyers? Who will decide societal issues, if not the Supreme Court (lawyers)? Who will govern our towns, our cities (lawyers)? Who will monitor our professional sports leagues (lawyers)? Who will decide where we want to buried, and where our hard earned money will go (lawyers)? Surely, and luckily, the welfare of our children will be decided by, you guessed it, lawyers.

In sum, the answers to most societal and governmental issues can be solved with...lawyers.

We're in good hands my brothers. No gloom and doom in America. As long as we have our army of lawyers to fight fights, right wrongs, legislate and administrate, and generally, make work for themselves, and get paid, we should be happy.

It's the American way.

Now this makes sense. Best post on the board.