Gloom And Doom Hits Home.

[Flyflinger]

Ok..last one for anyone who really wants to understand the truth.

[Al Agnew]

Flyflinger, I couldn't listen to all of that last one...for some reason my computer kept freezing up after listening for a bit.

However, I think I got the gist of it, and actually I don't disagree with much of it. I would suggest that not only is human history that of ever more complicated and effective ways of controlling the masses and utilizing their productivity by a "ruling" class, but human evolution is as well. Humans would have never survived without social order, and social order, in humans or in ants, is nothing but the workers working for the "good" of the rulers...as well as themselves. From the first hunter-gatherer bands, there have been leaders and rulers, and those who follow and usually do much or all of the work. And religion definitely has always paid a big part in the whole social order, long before the religions that are dominant in the world today.

But that brings up the question...given that not only history but evolution has made the human race the way it is today and dictated the way the social order works, is it POSSIBLE for humans as groups to change? Would any alternative social construct work?

I would suggest that humans are programmed to be leaders and followers, not to be individuals volutarily working for not only their own good but for the good of the group. I don't think we can ever survive and thrive as pure self-governing individuals, we have to be in some kind of groups. And whenever there is any human group, there are leaders and followers, and altruism and selfishness. The bigger and more complex the group, the more the likelihood is that tyrannical and exploitative leaders will emerge, and large numbers of people will voluntarily support them, and those who don't will be subjugated. The smallest social group in human evolution has been the family. In that simple social group, it's likely that the members will volutarily work the good of all. But once you get into bigger groups, tribes, city-states, nations, the further removed each segment gets from the others, and the easier it gets to dominate and exploit them, because you don't REALLY care about them.

Religion and patriotism ARE tools used to further that exploitative social order. And keeping the masses more or less happy DOES serve the purposes of the ruling class...better than overt tyranny and slavery.

So you see, I know what you're saying.

The difference between America and most past societies is that we have perfected the model of sharing prosperity far enough to keep the masses happy. Well, mostly perfected it. I've always thought that the rich people, who are the benevolent (somewhat) rulers in America and elsewhere, have a vested interest in keeping things running well enough to keep the masses happy. If the economy goes down the tubes, everybody suffers. If the poor get so poor that they are desperate and angry, they can bring down the rich eventually. So I used to think that the rich will never let true economic disaster happen.

But I now fear that the rich (ruling class) have let things get out of control, and don't know how to fix things for themselves, let alone the rest of us.

So I'm pretty pessimistic overall. I think the U.S. and the world 50 years from now, or much sooner, will be a vastly different and sadder, drearier place. I don't think humans can help being exploitative leaders and sheep-like followers...our evolutionary history makes us that way. And sooner or later, the leaders screw things up so badly that society falls apart, goes backward a few eons, and starts all over to repeat much of the same history.

So where does that leave us? To be honest, since I don't think we as a society can change to a new paradigm, the best we can do is try to make our present one better, a little bit at a time. We work with what we have, including government, taxes, and religion, and try to make each work a little better for everybody. If we do so, the rich "rulers" will still be huge recipients of the success of all of us, but the rest of us will benefit as well.

[Flyflinger]

Flyflinger, I couldn't listen to all of that last one...for some reason my computer kept freezing up after listening for a bit.

However, I think I got the gist of it, and actually I don't disagree with much of it. I would suggest that not only is human history that of ever more complicated and effective ways of controlling the masses and utilizing their productivity by a "ruling" class, but human evolution is as well. Humans would have never survived without social order, and social order, in humans or in ants, is nothing but the workers working for the "good" of the rulers...as well as themselves. From the first hunter-gatherer bands, there have been leaders and rulers, and those who follow and usually do much or all of the work. And religion definitely has always paid a big part in the whole social order, long before the religions that are dominant in the world today.

But that brings up the question...given that not only history but evolution has made the human race the way it is today and dictated the way the social order works, is it POSSIBLE for humans as groups to change? Would any alternative social construct work?

I would suggest that humans are programmed to be leaders and followers, not to be individuals volutarily working for not only their own good but for the good of the group. I don't think we can ever survive and thrive as pure self-governing individuals, we have to be in some kind of groups. And whenever there is any human group, there are leaders and followers, and altruism and selfishness. The bigger and more complex the group, the more the likelihood is that tyrannical and exploitative leaders will emerge, and large numbers of people will voluntarily support them, and those who don't will be subjugated. The smallest social group in human evolution has been the family. In that simple social group, it's likely that the members will volutarily work the good of all. But once you get into bigger groups, tribes, city-states, nations, the further removed each segment gets from the others, and the easier it gets to dominate and exploit them, because you don't REALLY care about them.

Religion and patriotism ARE tools used to further that exploitative social order. And keeping the masses more or less happy DOES serve the purposes of the ruling class...better than overt tyranny and slavery.

So you see, I know what you're saying.

The difference between America and most past societies is that we have perfected the model of sharing prosperity far enough to keep the masses happy. Well, mostly perfected it. I've always thought that the rich people, who are the benevolent (somewhat) rulers in America and elsewhere, have a vested interest in keeping things running well enough to keep the masses happy. If the economy goes down the tubes, everybody suffers. If the poor get so poor that they are desperate and angry, they can bring down the rich eventually. So I used to think that the rich will never let true economic disaster happen.

But I now fear that the rich (ruling class) have let things get out of control, and don't know how to fix things for themselves, let alone the rest of us.

So I'm pretty pessimistic overall. I think the U.S. and the world 50 years from now, or much sooner, will be a vastly different and sadder, drearier place. I don't think humans can help being exploitative leaders and sheep-like followers...our evolutionary history makes us that way. And sooner or later, the leaders screw things up so badly that society falls apart, goes backward a few eons, and starts all over to repeat much of the same history.

So where does that leave us? To be honest, since I don't think we as a society can change to a new paradigm, the best we can do is try to make our present one better, a little bit at a time. We work with what we have, including government, taxes, and religion, and try to make each work a little better for everybody. If we do so, the rich "rulers" will still be huge recipients of the success of all of us, but the rest of us will benefit as well.

Thank you for your response AL, your thoughts are always appreciated. Double thanks for taking the time to view the vids.

Well if you don't believe it can happen...then I guess it can't. Then again, some people couldn't believe a society could function without slaves...after all if we free the slaves who will pick the cotton.

Overcoming indoctrination is hard and takes real work. That is why most don't attempt it. They just go along with the status-quo, but it doesn't take everyone being on board to have real change. Only 20% of the population supported the founders opposing the British.

I am sure the other 80% were either apathetic or just couldn't see a society functioning without a monarchy. After all, there has to be some kind of King...we have always had a King, some were better than others...but always a King. How could we change, people need a King.....ect.

“You cannot solve a problem from the same consciousness that created it. You must learn to see the world anew.”--Albert Einstein

[rfd515]

Only when the last tree has died
and the last river has been poisoned
and the last fish has been caught
will we realize that we can't eat money

[Justin Spencer]

Dang it Al, now I'm depressed. I worry more about the environment than the economic problems we are having. I really think we are in the middle of bringing about the end of human life on our planet, I have no idea about a timeline, but I would guess several generations (maybe my great grandchildren) will be the last. Our country may be hurting, but not nearly as much as the media reports. We MUST get spending under control, which will increase the poverty in our country greatly, but this is a necessary evil. It won't be easy, as can be seen by people complaining about no more white house tours. If you can't agree to cut this in a time of need, then what will you cut?

[jdmidwest]

Why would you worry about the end of time? Are you not prepared?

Mayan calendar runs out. Near miss by an asteroid. North Korea threatens nuclear attack. Pope retires. Global warming is gonna fry us all. And Barack Hussein Obama is our leader.

What is there to worry about Justin??

[Mitch f]

Dang it Al, now I'm depressed. I worry more about the environment than the economic problems we are having. I really think we are in the middle of bringing about the end of human life on our planet, I have no idea about a timeline, but I would guess several generations (maybe my great grandchildren) will be the last.

I hope you really don't believe that

[Jack Jones]

Reading up on history it's pretty amazing how much of the "American Revolution" was actually something we would consider a terrorist insurrection by a small group of monied property owners if it happened today. It's true that a good portion of the colonists were apathetic and criitical of the patriots for ruining and disrupting their lives. I'm not sure I wouldn't have been. Especially having a wife and kids. I'd probably look at them as troublemakers myself.

When you read some of the atrocities committed by both the British and the patriots, it's amazing we still celebrate it. Of course, it did bring about this great and wonderful country. So I believe it is something to celebrate. And I believe that this country will endure our current struggles.

When I read up on history of other countries and other time periods, they are truly scary in terms of daily living and those folks survived. I suppose even at a lower income and struggling, we're all pretty lucky to be here in America. Generally, the water I drink is clean. I have enough food daily. Actually, more than enough. I am sheltered. I have clothing. I am cooled in summer and warm in winter. When I hurt, I'm usually able to obtain medicine that will cure it or at least relieve the pain. That makes me pretty blessed, I'd say.

I've tried to use this Lenten season to re-order some priorities, pray more, and be more thankful in my prayers for the blessings I do have. It's easy to get into the doom and gloom when you look around. Our leaders sure don't help that. However, if we can hold it together, I think in the end we'll be okay. We have the means and the technology, and many have the will. That's a good start.

[Feathers and Fins]

I posted this on another forum in a conversation on the seccession talk but it fits this topic as well.

People are tired of the goverment, entitlements, illegals stealing jobs etc etc. Our Politicians dont see Americans as being aggressive toward them and actually think they can do what they want because the people will not stand up. Look back through History and see what has happened every time a goverment did and thought that way. History ALWAYS repeats itself when people ( politicians dont learn from it )!

Just look at recent events. Im going to put in quotes below each one exact words from our Declaration of Independence to show you how much has happened repeating the past.

#1 President who beleives its legal to Kill people in this country that are citizens of it without due process

He has erected a multitude of new offices, and sent hither swarms of officers to harass our people, and eat out their substance.
He has affected to render the military independent of and superior to civil power.
He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his assent to their acts of pretended legislation:
For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of trial by jury:
He has abdicated government here, by declaring us out of his protection and waging war against us.

#2 President and House who passed a tax requiring you to have health insurance or penalizing you for not having it

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.
For imposing taxes on us without our consent:

#3 President and politician who are allowing for illegal immigration stealing our jobs and brining down our economy.

He has forbidden his governors to pass laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.
He has endeavored to prevent the population of these states; for that purpose obstructing the laws for naturalization of foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migration hither, and raising the conditions of new appropriations of lands.

#4 Finaly lets not forget his recent slap down for trying to tell the House and Senate when they can recess.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.
For suspending our own legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

The wording coulld easily be used to discuss our President and certain Members of the House and Senate! Our Founders even said

Such has been the patient sufferance of these colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former systems of government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute tyranny over these states.

[Al Agnew]

Dang it Al, now I'm depressed. I worry more about the environment than the economic problems we are having. I really think we are in the middle of bringing about the end of human life on our planet, I have no idea about a timeline, but I would guess several generations (maybe my great grandchildren) will be the last. Our country may be hurting, but not nearly as much as the media reports. We MUST get spending under control, which will increase the poverty in our country greatly, but this is a necessary evil. It won't be easy, as can be seen by people complaining about no more white house tours. If you can't agree to cut this in a time of need, then what will you cut?

I used to worry more about the environment than anything else, too. I still worry just as much about it. But I've come to realize that the worse the economy is, the more bad things happen to the environment.

I don't agree with you that we are bringing about the end of human life. Humans have a tremendous resiliency. They'll muddle through somehow no matter how bad it gets. But in that number of generations you mention, I expect the world to be a much less pleasant place to live, and there's a possibility that we'll bring about something that will topple governments and reduce the human population substantially.