The Meramec Red Ribbon Trout Doesn't Have To Suck!

[Greasy B]

Yes, but this a little hard for us to figure out. All the problems the river has now were problems back in the 80's. I was wondering if it was my own selective memory about the downturn but I'm hearing others had the same experience.
Mike, if you could have seen it back in the day. A Brown lurking under every log waiting for a fast stripped bugger. Foam lines that bulged with sippers and yes a White Fly emergence that would have the water boiling for a fleeting half hour every August evening just as last light faded to dark. I would take my vacations in the middle of October every year because the dry fly fishing was that good, often lasting all day long. In the spring time the catch rate would decrease but the browns were still in the river would have enough heft to really give you a tussle. I guess my expectations were easier met back then but I honestly had some real quality fishing.

[Ted Calcaterra]

Thisw would be a great masters thesis topic or grant study for a bright young individual studying Fisheries Biology at MU.

[Born to Fish]

It use to be very good back in the late 70s and early 80s when Spence Turner was the state trout biologist.

[bfishn]

Is there room for experiments or does the "Red Ribbon designation lock up trout management into a pre-described set of rules on trout stocking frequency, sizes and species? ...

That's the head of the nail...

From MDC's "trout" page;

Blue-Ribbon Trout Areas

Range from small creeks to large rivers

Less crowded than trout parks and winter trout areas

Small streams are not stocked, but depend on self-sustaining populations of Rainbow trout.

North Fork of the White, Eleven Point and Current rivers are stocked periodically.

Only artificial lures and flies may be used. Natural, soft plastic and scented baits are prohibited.

The daily limit is one trout of 18 inches or greater length.

A Missouri fishing permit is required, and a trout permit also is required if trout are harvested.

Red-Ribbon Trout Areas

Less crowded than trout parks and winter trout areas.

Stocked less intensively than white-ribbon trout areas. Browns are stocked once a year. Rainbows are either stocked, escape from other areas or reproduce.

Special regulations may include length limits, reduced creel limits and tackle restrictions. See regulations page.

A Missouri fishing permit is required, and a trout permit also is required if trout are harvested.

White-Ribbon Trout Areas

Less crowded than trout parks and winter trout areas.

Stocked less intensively than trout parks.

Fishing is permitted year-round.

The daily limit is four trout with no length limit on rainbows. Brown trout must be 15 inches or greater. Further seasonal restrictions may apply. See regulations page.

A Missouri fishing permit is required, and a trout permit also is required if trout are harvested.

Winter Trout Areas

The daily limit is four trout with no length limit, except for Koeneman Park, Walker, Jefferson, Wild Acres, Busch 21 and 28 and Tilles lakes in the St. Louis Region; Cosmo-Bethel Lake in Columbia; Rotary Lake in Jackson; Liberty Park Pond in Sedalia; McKay Park Lake in Jefferson City; Spur Pond in Kirksville; Kiwanis Lake in Mexico; Everyday Pond on the Missouri Western State University Campus in St. Joseph, where catch-and-release with artificial flies and lures is the only legal method for most of the season. See regulations page.

A Missouri fishing permit is required, and a trout permit also is required if trout are harvested.

*****************

Note in particular the stocking regime for each designation.

As for trout biology, they really do have it pretty well figured out. The hatchery textbook I learned from was written in the '50s, and the only major advances since then relate to disease control and feed formulation (back the you made your own instead of buying it in from Silver Cup).

Biologists study each area, paying particular attention to annual thermal profiles, food availability, and potential competition with other species. Then they make recommendations based on that analysis. The real decisions on "what goes where" are then made by the politicians (read commissioners), based on the biologist recommendations and return on investment (how to please the most people for the available money).

Getting an area re-designated would be quite a challenge, requiring a lot of voices in unison, but it can be done if the designation is based purely on ROI, which, if the remembrances here of "better days" is true is likely.

Added

Note also the lack of reference by MDC above to the tailwater trout fisheries (Taney, etc) which are primarily managed by the Feds. When the dams on the White were built, the Feds "agreed" to "replace" the previous warm water fishery that was destroyed in the tailwater areas by the cold water releases. Comparison to the streams and rivers that MDC manages is anecdotal, they're entirely different.

[Outside Bend]

Thisw would be a great masters thesis topic or grant study for a bright young individual studying Fisheries Biology at MU.

True.

I'm not sure whether it's a habitat quality issue in the Meramec, or whether it's a matter of MDC being at the limits of their brown trout production capacity- I know they've had a couple rough years producing browns at Shepherd of the Hills, and it may be the latter. If so, MDC swaps hatchery fish with all sorts of other states- SD and WY come to mind. Perhaps with a little lobbying they could augment state production of browns with some out-of-state fish. Or even reallocate the fish produced in the state- a lower proportion of browns stocked in trout parks, making up for the loss with more, easier to produce, rainbows. Just thinking out loud, but I'm not sure most park attendees know or care about the difference between browns and rainbows, they're looking for fish to fill the cooler.

Has anyone contacted the Conservation Commissioners? Jay's a bigtime angler, one would think the MDC director would be all over improving the state's trout resources, especially one so close to a major city. And with the new TU chapter developing in St. Louis, this could be an excellent project for them to get involved with.

[joeD]

Why is it so important to you guys to have trout in that section of the Meramec? Why should the State of Missouri put trout in that area? The basis of your argument seems to be that there were trout there years ago. So, why aren't there trout there now, huh Department of Conservation? Where is my trout on the Meramec gosh darnit!? I WANT MY TROUT! We will stop at nothing to reclaim the Red Ribbon Area for trout on the Meramec as a place worthy of our attention, just like in the good ol' days!

Has it ever occurred to you, that, maybe, probably, the Meramec doesn't like trout? That, despite all our ministrations and contortions and public goodwill toward that poor river, it's just not gonna work? Where is it written that between Hwy 8 and Scotts Ford there must be trout?

Things change. That's nature. Like when you're with a random girl, in bed, you're ready, she's ready, but, somehow, things aren't clicking. There's nothing wrong with you. Or her. It just ain't happening.

Like the Meramec with trout. It ain't happening. Get over it and move on.

[MattTucker]

Why is it so important to you guys to have trout in that section of the Meramec? Why should the State of Missouri put trout in that area? The basis of your argument seems to be that there were trout there years ago. So, why aren't there trout there now, huh Department of Conservation? Where is my trout on the Meramec gosh darnit!? I WANT MY TROUT! We will stop at nothing to reclaim the Red Ribbon Area for trout on the Meramec as a place worthy of our attention, just like in the good ol' days!

Has it ever occurred to you, that, maybe, probably, the Meramec doesn't like trout? That, despite all our ministrations and contortions and public goodwill toward that poor river, it's just not gonna work? Where is it written that between Hwy 8 and Scotts Ford there must be trout?

Things change. That's nature. Like when you're with a random girl, in bed, you're ready, she's ready, but, somehow, things aren't clicking. There's nothing wrong with you. Or her. It just ain't happening.

Like the Meramec with trout. It ain't happening. Get over it and move on.

I will play along.

1. Because the RRTA of the river has proven to be a successful fishery in years past (both in terms of number of fish and size of fish), we need to understand what has changed and if the river can support a successful trout fishery in the future (I believe it can, if it can't then cut losses and move resources to another fishery). To assume that it is simply "nature at work", assumes that there have been no other changes to the fishery from a management approach.

2. It is the closest potential trout fishery to the state's largest population center and by ensuring that this is a healthy and viable trout fishery, in theory it would help to reduce the pressure on other streams such as the Current and others; thereby perhaps benefiting fish populations in those streams.

3. The MDC has designated the section between Hwy 8 and Scotts Ford as trout water, in doing so they determined that there would be trout in that section of river (i guess, technically the opening of Meramec Springs determined that, but I digress) and that this section would be a managed trout fishery and it is important to "us guys" to maximize this fishery.

4. I like to fish for trout.

--Matt Tucker

[Justin Spencer]

Sounds like a job for the Gateway Chapter, to the hall of Justice!

[MattTucker]

Sounds like a job for the Gateway Chapter, to the hall of Justice!

Speaking of that...did i leave a cape down there during the filming of the harlem shake video?

Just kidding. I don't wear a cape....because capes are for pimps.

[Trout Man]

Great topic. Good fishing on the Meramec in the 80's and 90's the decline is really sad. I wonder if the current MDC individual in charge of the fishery actually fishes it? I know Spence Turner did.