Oh Brother, They Shut The Web Down Too....

[jdmidwest]

My problem is the willingness to shut down the government for a reason that has little to do with the matter at hand. BOTH sides are willing to sacrifice the good of the American people so they can make a political stand and come out looking strong. That's the reality.

I have feelings on which side may be to blame more than the other, but it doesn't matter, really. The point is, the aims of the people in Washington by and large have nothing to do with serving their country. That's a problem, and come election day I hope that a whole lot of incumbents are voted out.

They shut the government down trying to regain some fiscal responsibility. The country is way in the red right now and someone needs to balance it. While Obamacare has become the glitter, the main thing is to stop the rampant spending and regain some ground into the black.

We need a balance budget, cut un-needed spending, and regain ground so our future generations will not have to learn Chinese.

[lundone]

Gridlock and shutdowns are the best thing that can happen to the federal government. The less they do the better off all citzens are. The Rep's funded everything even obama care but demanded that the individual mandate be put off until 2015 like obama gave all businesses and demaded that congress and thier staff not be given taxpaper funded subsidies that the rest of us do not get. The dem's said they wanted the subsidies and to hell with us individuals (we are not the big donars that businesses are).

[1969Larson]

No program besides our military should get a single dollar until we have a balanced budget. Ya know why? WE DON'T HAVE IT! Seriously, cutbacks hurt, but it is time - way past. Do you really think we can right this ship without feeling it? It is going to hurt. If it doesn't, we're not doing enough.

[LarrySTL]

A few miscellaneous comments and then I think I am out of this thread.

1) Generally: what Al said.

2) I dont know if it was on this thread or a similar one but recently a few folks said they had read the ACA. Maybe so, but I am skeptical since its 906 pages long. Yes, I just looked that up.

3) Extra credit points to those who can name ( no fair Googling) the most recent President to actually have balanced budgets.

4) What ended the Vietnam War ? The convergence of a whole bunch of things including in no particular order: the draft and the big reduction in the number of ways to be deferred after the draft lottery began, the Kent State shootings ( Four Dead In Ohio for those musically inclined), Nixon getting caught by the international media lying about bombing and sending ground troops into Cambodia after Congress said he couldnt, the modern media showing what 50+ thousand US military deaths looks like on the evening news, mayor Daley's police riot at the 1968 Democratic convention, Khe Sahn, the 1969 March, Vietnam Veterans Against the War, the 1973 passage of the bipartisan Case Church amendment, with veto-proof majorities, prohibiting further military action in VN, Laos or Cambodia without specific advance Congressional approval, Arc Light bombing, and a whole bunch of other things. To say X ended it is inaccurately simplistic just as it would be to say that Eisenhower cancelling the UN elections after the defeat of the French caused it.

5) Shutting down everything but the military means shutting down, among other things: the DEA, the Post Office, immigration enforcement and the rest of ICE, the Federal Court system ( which can't be done constitutionally), VA benefits from medical care to the GI Bill and disability benefits, billions of dollars of medical research, air traffic controllers, lock operators and dredging crews on the Mississippi and Ohio Rivers among others, a great deal of the funding for K - 12 education. Etc Etc.

6) In the early 1900s ( 1906-07 I believe) Congress didnt want T Roosevelt, as Pres, sending his newer bigger better navy warship fleet to the Pacific. The Senate Appropriations Committee basically announced they would not fund such an excursion. Roosevelt said a) he's the Commander in Chief and he's sending the Navy there and c) theres enough money to send them there though it may be up to Congress whether to eventually fund their return from the Pacific.

5) Bumper stickers are great for slogans. However, both are really poor substitutes for thoughful policies.

[LarrySTL]

Oops..make that 5...6..7....darn cut and paste.

[Feathers and Fins]

Ok think about this one.

The Federal Government Employees WILL as soon as the shut down is over get their pay retroactively!

So the government will pay them as soon as the politicians can stop arguing. So why not keep the people working? I mean it sure must be nice to get time off and get paid for it all so your bosses can increase their credit card limit.

[Justin Spencer]

No program besides our military should get a single dollar until we have a balanced budget. Ya know why? WE DON'T HAVE IT! Seriously, cutbacks hurt, but it is time - way past. Do you really think we can right this ship without feeling it? It is going to hurt. If it doesn't, we're not doing enough.

If we want to be serious about balancing the budget, why does the military get a pass? Just because they have a very important job doesn't mean they operate efficiently. I realize we can't shut it down, but we could sure cut it way back while the government is shut down. Put all non-essential stateside soldiers on leave and stop cherry picking programs to ignore. Everything, including entitlements, the military, retirement age, etc. needs to be discussed.

[1969Larson]

Well, the job the military does is the ONLY one that I can't do for myself. Sure, the military budget needs to be revisited like everything else, but if it were to abruptly lose all funding it would be catastrophic, unlike other programs which at the worst would be inconvenient. I and my family depend on the military and we do not depend on anything else the Federal Government provides.

[bfishn]

...2) I dont know if it was on this thread or a similar one but recently a few folks said they had read the ACA. Maybe so, but I am skeptical since its 906 pages long. Yes, I just looked that up....

I share your skepticism Larry, and it's not just the 906 pages of bill text. Like most laws, there are hundreds more pages of existing laws that are either partially incorporated or modified by reference in the Act. To fully grok the big picture, one needs to read and understand all that too.

My job in commercial mechanical construction requires me to spend several hours daily searching, reading, inerpreting, and applying engineering specifications and building, mechanical, and electrical codes, so it's not a big jump for me to read law occasionally. I've tried to read the ACA repeatedly, but lost interest after only a few pages every time.

But that doesn't mean that the ACA is is unusually long or complex. The spec book for the construction of a new VA clinical addition we just completed was almost 2,000 pages, and it incorporated other codes by reference that exceeded 10,000 pages in the aggregate. It was a huge effort to ensure the details buried in those codes were all incorporated in construction, but each and every one was necessary to the safe and efficient function of a modern hospital. None of the codes that applied were written specifically for that job, they originated back in the '70s, and have been continuously updated and modified to this day. When first enacted, there was a huge industry resistance, and there are still a few die-hards that spout "we don't need no stinking codes". Fortunately, those guys aren't building hospitals.

Opponents of the ACA have capitalized on the fact that the public doesn't know what's in the law, fabricating gross exagerations and some outright lies, some of which have been repeated in this thread. I could counter a couple of them, but it wouldn't matter to any significant degree. Minds are made up and lines in the sand have been drawn. I blame the administration for not seeing that coming and countering each falsehood with fact.

I watched 3 hours of last Saturday night's last-minute House deliberation live on CSPAN. In a rare cross-examination of an ACA killer, the killer's argument fell to stuttering pieces when he was asked to provide factual basis for his claims. Didn't matter a bit.

There's no doubt the ACA has much room for improvement, but there seems to be no interest in taking up that task by the detractors. That tells me the detractors have no real interest in affordable healthcare at all, they are just using it to ensure they 'don't give nuthin' to that uppity nixxxx'.

[Feathers and Fins]

Justin, I do not know if you have followed this much but the Military has had elements put on furlough. Roughly 800 to 1000 in Fort Smith alone. We as a Nation Cannot put our Military on furlough. It would violate the constitution as providing for the common defense is right in the preamble.

Is there cuts and even permanent cuts that can be done? Certainly without doubt but to furlough the Military should never be an option as a whole and constitutionally cannot be one.

But as many people are finding out in this temper tantrum there are a many positions and programs that are not needed and can be cut back. This is quickly backfiring on the regime in charge as the PEOPLE are seeing just how much waste is in the federal government. I am telling people OPEN YOUR EYES! STOP THINKING PARTISIANLY! AND LOOK AT WHAT IS NOT NEEDED ITS SHOWING THROUGH! Many are now asking questions of just how much government is needed is so much can be closed.