Opinions On Guide Guarantees... And Should I Be As Mad As I Am?

[Al Agnew]

Yeah, the further info you gave puts things in a worse light.

I still say it's solely at the guide's discretion whether to take less money if the fishing is bad. If guides routinely did that, good ones would lose a lot of money, because not every client has the skills necessary to catch fish even if the guide puts them on the fish and tries to show them how to catch them.

But like I said before, the guide fishing all day would burn my toast. I've taken guided trips over the years; Florida bass, Virginia smallmouth, Connecticut trout, Maine smallmouth, New York smallmouth, Michigan steelhead, Montana, Wyoming, Idaho trout, Alaska trout and salmon. I've never had a guide who spent any time fishing himself unless I invited him to. They haven't all been great, but most have, and I felt like all but one had my fishing success first and foremost all day.

[rps]

flyman - I will share a couple of anecdotes that illustrate the range I have encountered. Some years ago Larry and I hired a guide for two days of trout fishing between Cotter and Buffalo Shoals. We had fished that stretch ourselves several times and we wanted to fish big fish. We made that clear when we booked. Our guide was on time and had servicable boat motor and such. He started us with jerk baits and we hit a number of places - several of which we knew from experience. No luck the first day other than stockers. The second morning the man was late, still wearing his dancing boots and jeans, and smelled like a bad mix or booze and cheap perfume. We paid him but did not tip him.

The very next year we hired JMC (J, M, and C were still all together) for a three boat group. The three men were on time, showed us multiple techniques - both live bait and arificial - and all three boats landed at least one C&R pin trout. A few years later, I had an equally good experience with David Capps, who sometimes posts here.

The point of my story is that you can't always tell about a guide until you get on the water. When you find a good one, spread the word.

Mike Worley fishes Bull Shoals primarily for walleye and posts on this board. PM him for a recommendation for the lake in which you are interested.

[Old plug]

I have only used one a Indian Guide in canada and picked up something fundamental i use to this day. I have taken friends ,neighbors and family out acting as a guide but I would never want to be a guide for anyone else. I like to fish alone. if someone is in the boat it breaks my concentration and I do not fish as well. I worry and wonder so much about the person in the back of the boat it makes me very uncomfortable.

[Ozark Sweetwater]

It really boils down to one thing, managing expectations. I always try to have several conversations with my clients prior to the trip. It's important to find out what they are wanting out of the trip. It may be a certain technique that are wanting to try, it may be just numbers they are after,or they could be trophy hunters. Whatever it is they are after, as a guide, you need to know this information and be up front and honest with them about the situation.

I have not had a fishless day but i have had some REALLY slow days. It is a very uncomfortable situation to be in. When the fishing is good , a guides job is pretty easy. When it's bad, I'm working my butt off changing flies,techniques ,and doing everything I can to get fish in the boat.

I personally never fish with clients in the boat. I have never seen a fly guide that does,other than to demonstrate a technique or to show a different retrieve or something similar. It may be different with guides on the lake, I honestly don't know.

[Bill Babler]

Wow! quite a conumdrum here. Phil's reply was more than good. There is a completely different set of rules that go with fishing different locations throughout this country and for that matter for each species you are anticipating catching.

Guides that are guiding in Alaska or fishing for Rainbow or Brown trout fly or spincast have a very different rule set than other species. Pretty much we don't fish, or we may at times try a presentation or a pattern to enhance the opportunity of our guests to either catch a fish or perhaps catch a bigger fish or catch a fish in a different s

way.

Trout fishing guides are not the norm, they are the exception. That is the way it is.

I have taken guide trips as a client on loads of occasions and if I'm fishing either salt, brackish, lakes or rivers, I have never been on a trip that the guide did not fish in some manner. I have as a client had them compete against me and want to catch more than I did. I have had them catch limits to give me and I have had them show me the proper technique and then watch as I practiced it.

Depending on location and species all were acceptable. I'm never very hot on Lake Fork, as that is an area just about every guide will front end you and will work about as hard as he can to put every fish in the boat. I have never figured that out. That is a different breed on Lake Fork.

Now all that being said, in 24 yrs now I have had only one skunk, with clients, Knock on wood. I did take out this Winter one of my favorite Clients deep fishing. He and his son fish with me at least 3 or 4 times per year. We were deep fishing and I was trying to determine if a spoon or a grub were best. I caught 5 bass vertical, the son caught 1 and a perch. It was freezing cold we called it early and I did not charge him. No problem for me as we will fish next year. They did miss several, but it was not what I wanted. Jerry thru a fit about wanting to pay me and he will get even with me next year. I'm sure, so no worries on my part.

I will tell you for 2013, a guide trip cost me $112.00 for each trip. So weather we catch them or not as hard as I may work and as hard as I may try. Regardless it cost me money, successful or not.

This is a very good time to catch and learn to catch Winter Walleye. IT is not even though it is a great time a guarantee when fishing Bull Shoals. This is a very, very difficult and precision type of fishing where success and failure can be almost one and the same. As far as Bass, during this period, if you are not catching at least some bass on upper Bull while you are fishing for walleye you are probably not going to catch walleye.

Success can be judged in technique, presentation equipment, and the locations you fished during your tour. A very good day for me currently on Bull and I can fish the upper end in the Winter as good or better than 90% of the folks is a couple of walleye and a handful of bass per day. If I catch twice that I'm not surprised and if I don't catch any I'm not surprised. Very tough fishery to take clients on. Reason being when the fishing get tough you have to get tougher. It is always tough there, and for the most part very hard for clients to have in their mind what it takes to be successful, and in reality you are fishing for bites not fish.

On these type of winter trips do you have the patients and the ability to fish each presentation to its complete fullest? To feel ever turn of the head of your bait. To keep your line tight and to concentrate on a tick so small that it feels like a fly lite on the rod tip. That is your first bite after 2 hrs. of fishing. This is not like trout where all the guide has to do is net a fish, retie a fly and say. HE's On IT. Oh no my friend, not on Bull in the Winter.

As far as changing lures, a guide wants you to have the very best bait. One that he believes is to be the most successful and one the one he has the most confidence in. He may be changing his bait and his presentation, but it is usually to find a better bait or presentation for you to use. He has got that bait on your rig for a reason.

Most fishermen try to over think things. When I fish certain locations, I will always try and explain to the client why I'm there and why I'm doing what I'm doing. Some guides just flat do not know why. The reason they are fishing a locations, is because they have caught fish at that location for years. They are just fishing from experience and success. In this day and age we think there is a reason for everything. Sometimes not. It just usually works.

When I fish with a guide I fish to find out the local flavor and to learn a location or a technique. Being successful to me is just being able to get out and learn something new.

Gosh, why would I get mad about anything that no one but the good Lord has control over. I have never yet figured out how to make a fish bite that didn't want to or to make each client catch the same number of fish on a trip.

I think Phil said it the best.

[flyman]

Thanks, Bill I appreciate the reply and it has been an interesting discussion. It was nice to vent. I don't know if you read my followup with a little more detail on the day... after summing it up and thinking about it, I feel I was not treated professionally and received horrible service.

I do have the patience for this kind of fishing. I have done quite a bit of homework on walleye fishing and I can tell you I knew going in that it would be like you said... an exercise in absolute patience. My expectations for the day were not a stringer full of fish. My expectations were to learn the lake and put into practice and compare what I have been learning on my own. That was not even close to being accomplished. One thing that I thought was strange right of the bat was that he instructed a retrieve quite the opposite of what you describe and what I have been studying. The jerkbait retrieve he showed me was pretty fast for any winter species. I thought right away that we needed to slow down a little but I'm not the pro so I did what he said. He also said it was the norm to catch 3-6 keeper walleye for him each trip and he has been catching them like that for the last several weeks. I should have listened to my gut then, I thought that was extremely optimistic...

Hopefully this discussion will allow people to learn from my mistake. Ask around, get a guide with a good reputation. Also, maybe some guides will read and give thought to what good service means. (All the guides that have replied have all sounded very reasonable with service that I would expect). It was helpful just to vent. I'm really a fair and laid back person in nature. I feel I'm justified in feeling disappointed in the service I received. There are great guys on here and it was good discussion.

I may go on trip advisor or some other review site. I have not decided that yet. I don't want to start any hostility.

Don't think for a minute that I was ungrateful for being out there on the water or mad at the good Lord for the conditions for the day. I LOVE each and every minute I spend fishing even if it's terrible!!! I appreciate greatly what you guides do and for other fishermen who lend a hand for us looking to learn. Excellent advice and discussion. Tight lines everyone!

[rainbow]

I fished with a guide on Bulll Shoals last year. He fished alot but if he changed lures and caught fish he changed mine too. I learned a lot of technique just watching him. He also was easy to talk with and answered a ton of my dumb questions. He was also good about watching me and making suggestions which when I tried worked. One thing for sure he got us on fish and didn't waste time fishing areas that were not productive.

[Bill Babler]

I fished with a guide on Bulll Shoals last year. He fished alot but if he changed lures and caught fish he changed mine too. I learned a lot of technique just watching him. He also was easy to talk with and answered a ton of my dumb questions. He was also good about watching me and making suggestions which when I tried worked. One thing for sure he got us on fish and didn't waste time fishing areas that were not productive.

This was late December or January? If your speaking of any other time frame, What ever your guide did would not be near the same under these winter conditions when the fish are lethargic and only in about 10% of the locations they are thru the rest of the season.

In the Winter season walleye seem to feed way less do to the temp and their metabolism. They will however when they start activate several strikes in a very quick time frame.

There is a particular channel swing on mid-bull that we will set at for hours throwing to time after time. I have fished it for as much as 3 hrs. without a strike and then caught a limit in 4 cast. This is a very strange fishery in the Winter months and be very frustrating or you can go down and catch the fish of a lifetime the first time you ever fish the bull.

Good Luck out there.

[rainbow]

Bill, it was in spring at the tail end of the white bass run and we were chasing whites. The run was over so we were after any that had hung around. Also caught blass bass and small mouth. While we did not get into them like you do during the run we still had a good time and brought home fish. Plus learned alot about that end of the lake.

[ness]

There's kind of a sentiment throughout this thread that the client needs to keep in mind that the guide needs to cover his costs. I guess I see that as little out of place. When you're running a business, it doesn't always work out every single time. But you try to make it work most of the time. And it's not your customer's responsibility. It shouldn't even be brought up.

I would think a successful guide would look beyond his cost today. In a situation like flyman describes the guide gets $225 ...one time. Costs covered, he made a profit, all's well, right? But...pretty sure flyman won't be back, and he won't be recommending him to anyone else either. So, how many trips has he forgone? 2 this month? 10 this year? Seems to me a little concession from the guide could go a long way toward offsetting the sting of a zero day by instilling goodwill. Maybe offer the next trip free; or offer to knock off half the price today with a half off the next time. Repeats and recommendations are the backbone of services like this.

Anyhoo -- this guy sounds more like a guy offering boat rides and less like a guide. I wonder if he got his wife to OK the boat purchase by telling her he could pay for it by guiding?