The Ramps

[Walcrabass]

Powerdive,

I understand your thoughts completely as it just doesn't seem possible. I am thinking you might be from Missouri, "The Show Me State" just like I am. Believe me I don't bite easily on information when I receive it. So to follow your advice I decided to check again with direct contact to the Marina people. I just got off the phone with them and they told me that they DID have the boat ramp closed due to working on their marina Docks. They also told me that they closed the boat ramp to the general public for launching but the Corp stepped in and told them that they could not do that. Case No, 1 is now solved.

In the case of the Viney Creek Campground I do not have a way of contacting them. I do know for a fact that when a annual use pass was ask for to purchase that they sold one to a person that I know well. When he looked at it he realized it said Viney Creek use area and not Corp of Engineers. It was $30.00. He then ask if the Corp of Engineer Tag was legal to use there and was told no as it was run by the State now. He promptly ask for a refund and they obliged. They also told him that the Corp had plans of closing/leasing out other Campgrounds. There were three attendants in the shack at the entrance to the area and they all said the same thing. When he ask why the Corp of Engineer tag was not valid he was told that they could do that since they were leasing the area.

All of this goes along with what Straw Hat has said and I know him to be a very knowledgeable and honest man.

I want everyone to know that I was not acting on personal conclusions or trying to insinuate anything. I was simply transferring information that was given to me by people that I know and trust.

I am glad to hear the change of heart concerning Mutton Creek. I am still very concerned about the information on Viney Creek. Like I said before, it all meshes with what Straw Hat posted on this same topic.

Walcrabass

[powerdive]

OK, sorry, sir. Thank you for the clear explanation--well stated, and much appreciated.

[Old plug]

Does bot have a thing to do with you Ranger Dave has to do with congress and there overall attitude. indo not trust goverment estimates on anything. I know I been on the other side of that coin. BUT what I do know if enough of the people down there get the facts together and make a good presentation of it let the corp shoot it down then go to the news media first and scream injustice then to the political leaders in Washington. And I do not mean going like a begger with a hat in your hand. I mean calling them out and blaming them. get legal help see if there is is any type of law been bent or broken. There is something wrong somewhere with the leasing of property you own. It can have political graft implications.

[bfishn]

Mr. W. Crabass,

Please keep in mind that you sources of information are;

1. a private lease holder in the case of a marina ramp, or

2. a low-bid contractor in the case of campground gate attendants.

None of these are CoE people. They may have information directly from the CoE, but they also have their own agenda to spin. There's no place like the horse;s mouth if you want the bottom line.

[Walcrabass]

Bfishn,

O.K. I agree with you. I personally don't know how to go about this. I am going to ask for help from Straw Hat.

Straw Hat, would you possibly know who can give us information straight from the "Horses Mouth" ??? I guess we are looking for legalities as far as the Corp of Engineers leasing property to private entities. Also what would be the rights of the leasee after acquiring the leased property as far as the general public still being able to use the property without expense above the ordinary expense that the Corp would require??

Mr W. Crabass ( that is kind of catchy bfishn, might have to change my "Stage Name" !!!!

[dprice]

Right or wrong I wouldn't mind purchasing masters or even cedar ridge. I know the state is selling properties back in specific regions ? I firmly believe anyone that pays taxes has a right to these places .If you can elect and vote principle in you could possible make a change. I see where some people actally draw a check to manage these places and make very poor decisions . This doesn't make much sense. The best way to be noticed is to speak! Dprice

[Old plug]

The thing that bothers me is that if they are passing out leases I hope it is not o some political crony.

[frying eyes]

I understand they need to maintain the ramps, but they never stopped taking taxes out of my Check after they was built!! That's why I don't like the fees or leasing.

[Sac River Jim]

Bill Babler has been following the Viney situation very closely. I think getting the input from him or some of the other table rock fellas would be very helpful. I've been following the threads posted on the subject pretty closely but i dont want to misquote something but yes i've read a couple things one involving Johnny Morris that has gotten my dander up too. Billy Long has a facebook page and ive voiced my concerns on there but all I got was the typical polite political brush off!!! As far as Mutton Creek Campground goes I called the marina and the corp stockton lake project mgr and the mutton creek south ramp has been leased to the campground and is for their campers only!!!! I agree we the tax payers built that ramp we pay 30.00 a year to use all corp built ramps not just the corp maintained ramps.Washington is getting the best of both worlds by having the Corp lease the ramps and campgrounds our tax dollars built. They are still generating income but the Corp doesnt have the expense of maintaining it therefore justifying the goverment cutting the Corps budget allowing our use fees to be appropriated to the goverment's little pet projects. I will say this much the fees we pay go into the general funds and not directly to the corp for maintaining the facililties.

[Sac River Jim]

I guess I have a different opinion on the ramp fees. I don't see the ramp fee as a charge to use the ramp but a charge to maintain and operate the ramp. I agree that the ramp was built with my tax dollars and indirectly I am part owner of the ramp. But just like our cars, boats, and houses, the expenses don't stop with the initial purchase. I think we would all agree that the ramp would not be fit to use after a few years if someone didn't come and clean the rest rooms, maintain the loading dock boards in the loading ramp, and to move the loading ramp in and out to adjust for water level. Yes we could simply raise our taxes to pay for these services but the government has proven that they can't manage things like this so the tax increase would be far more than a ramp fee of $3.

I just went to the St. Louis Arch on vacation last week. My tax dollars helped build the Arch but they still charge $10 per person to let me take a tour and ride the elevator. There were so many people willing to pay the $10 that there was a 2 hour wait all day long. Is it fair to charge the tax payers a fee to take a tour? Someone has to run the place, pay for the electricity, and keep the place clean. What would the Arch look like today if we just built it and let everyone come for free? There would be no one around to coordinate the place and it would rapidly become a dump and not a place to visit. Are the Corp ramps any different?

Do I like paying $3 at the ramp? No I don't. I usually pay the $30 fee every year just for convenience even if I don't make the 10 trips to break even. However, I don't like the alternative either. I like going to a nice clean ramp with a loading dock. I have used gravel ramps with no loading docks (like at Alrich) and I don't like it. I have also used the ramps at Mutton Creek which are private and the bumper rails on the loading dock were half ripped off and there were exposed nail heads scratching my boat. I would gladly pay $3 per trip to use a nice ramp like at Cedar Ridge or High Point.

Now I agree that the ramp fee needs to be fair. $3 to $5 does not seem unfair to me. I spend more than that on a trip through McDonalds on my way to the lake. If the ramp fee became unfair then I would definitely be writing my congressman. Lake of the Ozarks is a private lake and I have paid a $5 fee to use their ramps.

Dave thats where i see the problem is. The fees go directly into the general funds not directly to the corp for maintaining the facilities.