Feral Hogs are getting out of hand

[Quillback]

1 hour ago, Chief Grey Bear said:

1 minute ago, SpoonDog said:

Nowhere, anywhere, at any time, did I say MDC manages game solely on monetary value.   I said it's a factor- that MDC doesn't operate in a political vacuum- you can google any number of Missouri state legislature maneuvers and learn that's a provably true statement.  I'm on MDC's side 90%+ of the time, I'm just not going to pretend they don't receive money and matching funds from license sales, nor am I going to pretend they receive no input from hunters, anglers, the Conservation Federation, or even lobbyists.

Thanks Quill, I did read the article- I just don't believe pheasants stop being pheasants when they're outside the arbitrary geopolitical boundaries of the state. Captive birds are captive birds, whether they're in Missouri or Georgia or Wyoming or Abu Dabi.  We can pick bird flu if you want, though.  Or salmonella.  Or botulism.  And you're right, the state-run hatchery was willing to eliminate all their birds and decontaminate everything because they could take the financial hit.  I don't know that a small business would be able or willing to that and apparently MDC isn't willing to risk it, either- otherwise the regs in the Wildlife Code wouldn't be in the Wildlife Code.

I keep bringing up deer farms because people pay to hunt them, just like people pay to hunt bird farms- they're analogous arrangements.  If you can't see the similarities in those two business models, I have to wonder if it's because you don't want to.  People pay money for these services because they see value in them.  Because people see value in them, they don't want these services to disappear.   Because they don't want these services to disappear, they contact MDC, they contact their legislators.  Saying it's just one court case assumes you don't know about all the legislative wrangling that's been going on regarding captive deer in the state, eliminating MDC's conservation sales tax, and fiddling with the number of Conservation Commissioners. A quick google search, a conversation with a conservation federation member can help clear that up.  These things have happened, irrespective of whatever you believe. 

All I'm saying is exactly what I just said, no need to put words in my mouth.  And if it's happened with deer, I can't think of a reason it absolutely wouldn't happen with hogs. 

Well it is somewhat difficult to document. I see no real need into heading that direction either.

But we always have the option of waiting until it is an epidemic and then trying to rectify the consequences. 

OK, well if you want to speculate go ahead.  And you still haven't produced one shred of evidence that MO birds have been effected by disease from game bird operations.  if there is a real, verified threat to MO game birds coming from game bird operations, then those operations should be shut down. 

You can keep trying to fog the discussion if you want by bringing in high fence operations, shadowy conspiracies, bear wrestling, Wyoming, etc.   It's pretty funny stuff.

[SpoonDog]

33 minutes ago, Quillback said:

OK, well if you want to speculate go ahead.  And you still haven't produced one shred of evidence that MO birds have been effected by disease from game bird operations.  if there is a real, verified threat to MO game birds coming from game bird operations, then those operations should be shut down. 

You can keep trying to fog the discussion if you want by bringing in high fence operations, shadowy conspiracies, bear wrestling, Wyoming, etc.   It's pretty funny stuff.

You're being absurd, Quill.  As much as I'd love to see you sit down and shame a salmonella bacterium into respecting political boundaries, diseases don't care whether it's Wyoming or Missouri.  They've never looked at a map. Momentarily ignoring the fact bird flu has been reported in Missouri, moving the goalpost and insisting "it only counts if it happens in the state" bears no resemblance to rational thought. 

You're welcome to contact MDC and ask why they don't want penned birds stocked adjacent to theirs.  Contact information's on their website.

[Quillback]

Well, now you've gone to the personal attack mode, calling me absurd, and not using rational thought.  I always take that as an acknowledgement that someone such as yourself has lost the argument.  Why should I contact MDC?  I have nothing to prove.  I'm content to say that there is no evidence that wild bird populations in MO have been infected by diseases introduced from game farms. 

[Quillback]

BTW Spoon, you might want to research Avian Botulism, which was the disease, as I understand it that infected those Wyoming birds.  You'll learn that specific disease is not caused by pen raised game birds, they can contract the disease, and so can domestic chickens, but it's source is primarily in wetlands.  And it is not something that can be eradicated.  You could completely eliminate game bird facilities, but it would not stop outbreaks of this disease. 

[MOPanfisher]

I don't think the MDC is going to lose their sales tax base, as a population in Missouri we know what we have and are glad to have it, usually no problem in re-authorizing it.

Feral Hogs, Pen raised birds, fly shooting, and bear wrestling, at least we aren't single minded in our conversations.  Gotta love OA for stuff like this.

[MOPanfisher]

Feral swine are not native to Missouri. Over 6 million feral swine can now be found across more than 35 states. 

• Nationwide the total aggregate cost of damage caused by feral swine is estimated to be $1.5 billion annually, with at least $800 million of this estimate related to direct costs to agriculture. 

• Feral swine are known to occur in approximately 40 counties in Missouri, with established populations in 28 counties on public and private land from a variety of sources including illegal releases by individuals desiring to establish swine populations to hunt. 

• Feral swine threaten the forest, fish, and wildlife resources, and these resources annually generate over $10.5 billion dollars annually in economic benefit to Missouri. 

• Feral swine have been known to carry or transmit over 30 diseases and 40 parasites that can be transmitted to livestock, people, pets, and wildlife. 

• Risks and threats associated with known feral swine diseases have been steadily increasing in recent years. Diseases such as pseudorabies and swine brucellosis have been eliminated from the U.S. domestic swine industry, but circulate at high levels in feral swine. Risk assessments and models have shown the importance of addressing foreign animal diseases such as classical swine fever and foot-and-mouth disease in feral swine due to the ability of these viruses to remain unchecked and rapidly spread throughout the U.S. 


Some estimates value the domestic swine industry at over $22 billion, and a single incursion of classical swine fever or foot-and-mouth disease would devastate the industry and U.S. economy. 

• Missouri ranks 7th nationally in the sales of swine (hogs and pigs), it is estimated to be approximately 1 billion dollars annually. Thousands of swine move into and out of Missouri on a weekly basis, maintaining the health status of Missouri swine is crucial to prevent additional cost of testing, and loss of domestic and international markets to our swine producers. 

• In 2015 Missouri ranked 4th nationally in cow/calf operations and 9th in gross income derived from cattle sales. 

• Missouri made 179.8 million from exported beef and veal in 2014. 

• Missouri made 311.5 million from exported pork in 2014. 

• Feral swine can carry several diseases that affect domestic swine, such as pseudorabies, brucellosis, porcine reproductive and respiratory syndrome (PRRS), swine influenza and Trichinellosis. 

• If a foreign animal disease, such as foot-and-mouth disease or classical swine fever, were to enter the United States, feral swine could spread the disease to domestic swine or other susceptible animals. 

• The World Conservation Union, Invasive Species Specialist Group has labeled feral swine as one of the “World’s Worst Invasive Alien Species.” 

• Feral swine directly and indirectly damage natural communities, destroy agricultural crops, compete with native wildlife, and serve as reservoirs of disease. 

• Recent population models in Missouri estimate an annual population growth rate of 166% if no actions are taken to eliminate feral swine. 

• Based on these models, an estimated 62% of the population would need to be removed annually to stabilize population growth and 71% percent of the population would have to be removed annually to cause decline.

 

[MOPanfisher]

Somehow I messed up the formatting, but copied and pasted the above information from a report by MDC.

[SpoonDog]

This thread's gotten pretty far afield of the original topic.  I'm sorry you're offended Quill, but the idea a germ consults an atlas before determining its communicability is absolutely ridiculous. And while it's true some diseases, like botulism, are found elsewhere- that doesn't change the fact they're found in bird pens.  If there's really no risk from penned birds transmitting disease to wild ones, I don't think Wyoming would've destroyed all their penned birds.  If there were really no risk of penned birds transmitting disease to wild ones, I don't know why MDC would place restrictions on where they can be released- and if you had such a strong argument, you wouldn't be dodging that question every time it's raised.  I've already told you why they have that policy, and if you don't want to believe me, you're welcome to contact them. 

6 minutes ago, MOPanfisher said:

Somehow I messed up the formatting, but copied and pasted the above information from a report by MDC.

Thanks for getting this thread back on track.  Crazy that 62% of the population needs to be removed annually just to STABILIZE the numbers. 

 

 

[Quillback]

27 minutes ago, SpoonDog said:

This thread's gotten pretty far afield of the original topic.  I'm sorry you're offended Quill, but the idea a germ consults an atlas before determining its communicability is absolutely ridiculous. And while it's true some diseases, like botulism, are found elsewhere- that doesn't change the fact they're found in bird pens.  If there's really no risk from penned birds transmitting disease to wild ones, I don't think Wyoming would've destroyed all their penned birds.  If there were really no risk of penned birds transmitting disease to wild ones, I don't know why MDC would place restrictions on where they can be released- and if you had such a strong argument, you wouldn't be dodging that question every time it's raised.  I've already told you why they have that policy, and if you don't want to believe me, you're welcome to contact them. 

Thanks for getting this thread back on track.  Crazy that 62% of the population needs to be removed annually just to STABILIZE the numbers. 

 

 

Dodging?  I have answered your personal speculation, which is all it is.  BTW you haven't offended me, I am cool with discussing this.  Here's all I can find on MDC's thoughts on captive birds and disease spread:

Released captive quail also may spread diseases to wild quail. Transmission of bacteria, viruses, and parasites from captive-reared to wild birds is certainly a possibility, although few such cases have been documented. Regardless, biologists emphasize that, if captive quail are to be released, strict health protocols must be followed to minimize the potential for disease transmission. Also of concern is in.

Is that what you are basing your speculation on?  Got something else? 

Of course they destroyed those birds, but did that destroy the source of the disease?  Do you think Wyoming birds are going to bring avian botulism to Missouri?  Where do you think it originates from?  Farm raised birds?  Seriously, you should research avian botulism before you make lame attempts to blame it on bird game farms.  Another way to look at it, is you could totally end game bird farming and you won't end the risk of birds contracting avian botulism.  OK, so must be something else, what is it? 

You still don't have anything credible to support your position, except your own speculation.

 

[MOPanfisher]

Some of the disconnect on pen raised critters vs. wild or even feral is that the ones in captivity/confinement are under the jurisdiction I believe of the Dept. of Agriculture, the wild animals are obviously MDC, and the feral ones are sort of a Siamese twin, with both agencies working together on them.    And honestly I forgot what the rest of the disagreement was about.