Brown Trout Petition for the Eleven Point

[Brian Sloss]

The biologist said he would send me more info regarding the blue ribbon area when he gets back from a trip. It will be a week or two and then I will relay the info here.

[BrianK]

Hmmmm, I didn't think of Greer Spring branch separately.

How long is that branch? So in 2013 it goes to the Park Service and the public?

Brian, any info on the wild rainbow population specifically in the spring branch? That's currently not open for public fishing right?

I'd agree with keeping it protected and remote.

[Ham]

The poll is flawed if you can only vote in support if the idea. It would be much more useful and telling if everyone had both options. The lack of both options makes it look like stacking the deck.

I do not have a dog in this fight. I certainly would enjoy catching more Brown trout, but I have no plans for the 11 point in my foreseeable future.

[Brian Sloss]

Disapproval is added by adding your comments here. The MDC is aware of this thread. The Greer spring branch is like 3/4 of a mile. It may never be open to fishing of any sort. The forest service is yet to make that determination. The are those in the forest service who would like to see no fishing at all in the spring branch. They want it to be a natural area where all you could do is hike down and look at the spring. I want it to be kept natural, no new trails or anything, just add catch and release fishing.

[SilverMallard]

I think they would have a hard time keeping it closed to fishing. And I agree with you, a quality C&R stream...maybe even fly-fishing only...would be awesome!

I'll bet that we could get TU and FFF involved in something like that. TU would love to see more wild trout and C&R water in the Ozarks. And they and FFF have the national clout to lobby effectively with the NPS.

[jdmidwest]

It has been closed to fishing to everyone but the owners of the private property. The spring branch is a unique ecosystem preserved by years of private ownership. The gradient of the flowing water would make most of it dangerous to the flyfishers. I would hate to see it trampled down and cleared out to make a park. It deserves to be a natural area and protected as it is.

[Brian Sloss]

Making Greer into a park and cleared is completely off the table by all parties involved. The only possible debate is whether to allow catch and release fishing with no improvements or trails or boats.

[SilverMallard]

When it's private land, it can be closed to trespass by the owners. If it becomes part of the Ozarks National Scenic Riverway, it will be difficult to keep closed. The BEST bet to avoid litigation and a bunch of PR wrangling would be to open it to very limited angling like C&R only.

And if we can fish below a hydro-electric dam with an unpredictable generation schedule, I don't think stream gradients have much of a "danger" argument that would hold up to scrutiny.

I also do not oppose...and generally support...primitive trails in natural areas. Just keep ATVs and horses off of them and there's no problem. If nature cannot be accessed, it has no value to mankind. If it is to be public land, then it needs to be open to the public. We have no use for denied-use nature preserves unless they protect endangered species.

[Gavin]

It would be really hard to develop Greer Spring..its like a little canyon down there, lots of slippery rocks and a very high gradient a long way from the road. Think a kayaker died while trying to run it a long time ago. Its fishable though..I've never had the priveledge, but there are some folks who have permission to fish the spring and do.

As for public use...there is already a public trail that takes you down to the spring head. Its a really pretty spot and I'd like to see it preserved as is...I cant see a reason to keep the public out, but I wouldnt mind if it stayed closed to public fishing. Why introduce extra traffic and the fishing litter?

[Al Agnew]

Well, I didn't read this thread for a while, and now see some very interesting discussions...

First, about smallmouths being native to the Ozarks. As I said before, from what I've been able to learn and maybe with a little guesswork as well, northern smallmouths were definitely native to streams flowing directly into the Mississippi River above the mouth of the Ohio, which would include the Meramec River system--Meramec flows into the Mississippi just below St. Louis--and the smaller streams that flow into the Mississippi between there and Cape Girardeau--Joachim Creek, Plattin Creek, Establishment Creek, Saline Creek and South Fork Saline, Apple Creek, and Indian Creek. Neosho smallies were native to streams of the Neosho river system and probably to other streams that flow into the Arkansas, including the Illinois, Lee Creek, Big Piney Creek, and Mulberry. Since it doesn't make much sense that there would be a subspecies that was TOTALLY isolated from the main species, and since the White River runs into the Arkansas right near its mouth, it is connected to both the Arkansas system and the Mississippi, so the fish of the central Ozarks, including the White, James, North Fork, Buffalo, Spring, Eleven Point, Current, and Black (all of which eventually get to the White), could have been closely akin to Neoshos, or could have been northern smallies, or could have been some intergrade between the two. Which covers most of the Ozarks, and leaves us with the streams that enter the Mississippi down in the flatlands of AR but have their upper sections in the Ozarks--St. Francis, Castor, and Whitewater. These fish were probably northern smallies. It also leaves us with MO Ozark streams that flow into the Osage and Missouri. What makes it possible that these streams didn't have ANY smallmouths is the fact that the Missouri River was a pretty fair barrier in prehistoric times. It was always extremely muddy due to the lands it drained in the West. So Mississippi river system fish MAY NOT have been able to spread up the Missouri into the Gasconade, Osage, Niangua, Pomme de Terre, and Sac. It's believed that rock bass weren't native to those streams for that reason.

So...yes, smallmouths were native to most of the Ozarks, but POSSIBLY not native to the Gasconade and Osage river systems. The records aren't available to tell us this with any certainty.

As for Greer Spring...my opinion is that it would both possible and desirable to keep the spring branch off limits to angling. If you allow angling, whether catch and release, flies only, or whatever, you're going to end up with well worn paths up and down the edges of the spring branch, moss worn off the rocks, bottom stirred up and disturbed. The more I think about it, the more adamantly I'm opposed to this. Greer is unique as the only big spring branch that is wild and natural, and anything that can be done to keep it that way should be done. Just keep one good trail and enforce keeping the public on that trail.

As for browns in the EP...personally I wouldn't be opposed. Like some others, I feel that this is still a mostly artificial fishery. Only if it can be shown that a significant number of the rainbows are wild, stream spawned fish, would I be for keeping the browns out just to cut down on predation of rainbow fingerlings. But if the wild population is a very small percentage of total population of rainbows, why not stock browns? I do think that in the stocked situation on nearly all Ozark streams, the browns add to the fishing interest and opportunity.