Phil Lilley

I probably made my post alittle too personal against Dan052 - sorry about that. Wanted to make a point about Crane Creek. It is special. I'd almost compare it to finding an endangered species while building a road... they find a cave with blind crawfish and the project is halted. The McCloud Rainbow should be on an endangered list because of it's rarity. How many places in the country are there pure strains of the McCloud? They've survived how many droughts and floods? Our fight isn't with each other, it's against the powers who want to build a lake. We should keep it that way.

No we won't go with the flow. And it won't be a small group of people fighting this, you can assured of that. You have an opinion... yes... and you're free to express it. You may suggest we let go of the tree, but we won't. And it's not our favorite fishing hole... most of us haven't even fished there. I have once. It's more than a fishing hole. And in our opinion and many others, it's worth fighting for, thank you. Now you can politely agree to disagree and quit telling us what we should and shouldn't do... or you could go ahead and tell us to let go of the tree - you'll be wasting your finger-energy. I happen to like nuclear power plants. They should build more of them and not hydro plants.

Email sent.

Does anyone know who would be THE fish man in Arkansas Fish & Game? The guy who could send us the report?

Is it online? Can't seem to find it on their site.

http://www.examiner.com/x-6356-Wichita-Ind...ouri-hydropower Remember this quote form Ronald Reagan? "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'" How about this one from Barack Obama? "To truly transform our economy, protect our security, and save our planet from the ravages of climate change, we need to ultimately make clean, renewable energy the profitable kind of energy." So, in this time of us beholden to foreign despots for our energy, a climate that Gore and Obama say is collapsing around us as I type, and the words "clean" and "green" at the top of the nation's lexicon, how is it that trout fishing in Arkansas is now taking precedent over clean, renewable hydro-electric power for residents of Missouri? That's the question raised by Wally Kennedy's front page story in Sunday's Joplin Globe. It seems that Empire District Electric Company is going to be forced to decrease output of hydro-electric power at its Lake Taneycomo dam facility to facilitate increased trout fishing downstream on the White River in Arkansas. Kennedy does an excellent job of bringing out the details of the cluster but in the end it boils down to one word: Politics. The economic-political interests of Arkansas (increased tourism revenue from year-round trout fishing) against the economic-political interests of southwest Missouri (decreased hydro-electric energy replaced by more expensive coal/natural gas generation). Jeff Davis, a member of the Missouri Public Service Commission appears to understand the situation: “Somebody got to them. I’m not sure who,’’ he said. “They issued a final report and then all of a sudden a proposed addendum comes out of nowhere without any consultation with the regulatory agencies from the affected states. The first we knew about it is when it appeared in the Federal Register. “This is something the SWPA thought up on their own. We had one shot to compensate Empire and ultimately their customers for losing this electric capacity. The first offer was a little low, but acceptable. The addendum cut it in half, which is not acceptable.’’ There's certainly nothing wrong with the state of Arkansas wanting to increase economic activity on the White River. But with a new President in the White House and he and his surrogates telling us daily that clean, renewable energy is of utmost national priority, a plan putting polluting human activity above non-polluting renewable electricity generation is a mixed-message at best. Congressman Roy Blunt's office is now involved, The Globe has brought it to the public's attention, only one question yet remains: Rhetoric or reality, which shall it be Mr. President?

He's got more nice videos too.

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No- I can't run both at once. The water has been running so much, I haven't had it up. It's still there... just no live feed.

http://lilleyslanding.com/live-cam Use only internet explorer. It's working fine.

OK... just skimmed though the posts. Sorry, I don't have time to monitor the whole forum anymore. Dano actually alerted me to what was going on. Plus I've been busy over on the Table Rock forum trying to make peace there. Scudz... You've been a member for about a year and all of a sudden you came alive. I understand your frustration with info being shared about your river. There's been conversation about Crane Creek and sharing specific hot spots and feelings get riled up over it. Understandable. But bottom line, you're not going to change things, no matter how you try. The forum will continue to educate people about fishing - period- with or without you. I would suggest your next post on this forum be positive and respectful, or it will be your last post here. You did read the rules before you registered, didn't you? BTW, your son's post really had me confused. Thought it was a Dr Jeckle, Mr Hyde thing. One other observation. You guys might consider alittle diplomacy next time when dealing with controversy... just a post or two to see if a situation like this can be avoided. This is not a hammer, but just a small voice with a suggestion so don't take it too hard.

I like it.

Wonderful. Thanks for posting the link. Makes me homesick.

http://www.joplinglobe.com/local/local_story_241221332.html To illustrate the impact of raising the water level in Bull Shoals Lake by 5 feet, and what that means for 167,000 customers of The Empire District Electric Co., Brad Beecher raises a pencil one foot above a table. He drops it. The pencil hits the table, but not hard. He then holds the pencil three feet above the table and drops it. It hits harder. “Hydropower is not created by water, but by falling water,” explained Beecher, Empire’s chief operating officer for electricity. “Increasing the water level in Bull Shoals Lake will reduce how far the water falls at our hydroplant upstream on Lake Taneycomo. “It will take away from what we call our ‘head’ at the plant,” Beecher said. In other words, Empire won’t be able to generate as much electricity from its dam on the White River. “When you only have 20 feet of head at Lake Taneycomo, 5 feet equals a 15 to 16 percent drop in generation,’’ he said. Changing water levels and generation at Taneycomo could cost tens of millions of dollars. How much, exactly, is a matter of dispute. Premier fishery The objective of what is known as the White River Minimum Flows project is to put more water into Bull Shoals Lake on the Missouri-Arkansas line. That water, in turn, would be used to create a more continuous flow of water downstream in the White River in northern Arkansas. The river is one of the premier trout-fishing destinations in the country. The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers operates dams that form Bull Shoals and Norfolk lakes, which are downstream of Bull Shoals on the North Fork of the White River, as peak-power production sites. The turbines are turned on to create electricity when it is needed most, but when electricity is not needed, virtually no water flows from the federally controlled dams. The White River Minimum Flows project would also reduce the capacity of Bull Shoals and Norfolk to produce electricity. Trout flourish in flowing, cold streams that are stable. When water pools and warms below the dams, the trout suffer. The theory is that with a consistent flow of cold water, trout will grow larger and become more abundant, and that will attract more fishermen, who, in turn, will spend more recreational dollars. Cut by nearly half, Empire originally was to have received $41.3 million in a one-time compensation for the power it won’t be able to produce as a tradeoff for improved downstream trout habitat. That compensation was based on calculations by the Southwestern Power Administration (SWPA), a federal agency in the U.S. Department of Energy that is one of four Power Marketing Administrations in the United States. Southwestern markets hydroelectric power in Arkansas, Kansas, Louisiana, Missouri, Oklahoma and Texas from 24 U.S. Army Corps of Engineers flood-control dams. By law, Southwestern’s power is marketed and delivered primarily to public bodies, such as rural electric cooperatives and municipal utilities. When the $41.3 million in compensation was unveiled by the SWPA in January, it was viewed as a low but acceptable offer by Empire and the Missouri Public Service Commission, which regulates Empire. In June, the SWPA put out a proposed addendum that cut that compensation almost in half to $22.3 million. Empire’s customers are on the hook for $19 million difference, which has Empire and Missouri Public Service Commission officials fuming. Jeff Davis, a member of the PSC, sent a letter dated Aug. 5 to U.S. Rep. Roy Blunt, R-Mo., who supported the minimum-flow project initially, but who is now expressing concerns. Davis wrote: “The revised decision proposed by the SWPA could ultimately cost the affected Missouri consumers more than $135 per customer.’’ ‘Start with you’ Davis, who praised Blunt for helping Empire and the PSC reach an initial settlement with the SWPA that he viewed as more equitable, also wrote: “Congressman, it’s time somebody started asking the management of SPWA about how they conduct their business and since all of these (Empire) customers are located in your congressional district, I wanted to start with you.’’ Blunt, last week, said he is “extremely concerned about the escalating cost for Missouri ratepayers and we take Empire’s concerns very seriously on this.’’ Dan Wadlington, a spokesman for Blunt, said Blunt’s staff is working with the staff of the Missouri Public Service Commission as well as the U.S. Department of Energy “to make sure they know about the congressman’s reservations.’’ Davis, in his letter, accuses the SWPA of bending to political interference. He wrote: “Although I have no proof, my concern is that shortly after publishing its final determination on Jan. 23, 2009, SWPA received political pressure from members of the Arkansas congressional delegation and/or other federal agencies to lower the amount of compensation Empire would otherwise be entitled to receive and contrived the proposed methodology to achieve the desired result.’’ The addendum, he said, used a revised forecast for wholesale power prices at a time when current power prices have been depressed by the worst economic recession in decades. That change lowered Empire’s compensation from $41 million to $29 million. The SWPA, he said, then selected a discount rate that was much higher than the discount rate used for the federal dams at Bull Shoals and Norfolk. That dropped the compensation to $22 million. Davis also noted in his letter to Blunt that the SWPA refuses to recognize any increased value of the lost hydroelectric power associated with proposed legislation to create a carbon cap-and-trade system. The SWPA also refuses to consider the value of the lost hydropower in terms of renewable-energy credits, which are of significant value to Empire under Missouri’s Renewable Energy Standard adopted by referendum last November. Determining value George Robbins, director of the SWPA’s division of resources and rates in Tulsa, in a telephone interview, said last week, “After we completed a study on it and made a final determination in January, we found some things we needed to correct and in early June we put out an addendum to reflect the changes.’’ A 30-day comment period accompanied the addendum. Robbins said, “We’re evaluating the comments and preparing responses, and looking at whatever changes we need.’’ Robbins said the SWPA “developed a method for computing what energy and capacity loss will be. The value of that is based on several economic parameters, including energy prices and interest rates. The value depends on the market and the economy.’’ Robbins said those parameters were decided solely by the SWPA, which will get a $61 million federal credit or offset from the federal government for the loss it will sustain from the White River Minimum Flows project. It’s initial credit was closer to $80 million, but that has since been revised downward. He said the revised formula wasn’t motivated by an attempt to reduce the federal government’s payment to Empire or to improve the cost-benefit ratio of the White River Minimum Flows project. Robbins also said the $22 million in compensation to Empire is not set in stone. “The exact compensation will be set at the date of implementation (which could be in 2010 or 2011),’’ he said. “We’ll look up all the parameters we used with this method and see what the numbers are at that time.’’ Robbins said the SWPA did consider a credit for a carbon tax or a cap-and-trade credit, and the renewable-energy credit when it revised its compensation criteria. “We found these things that needed some attention and we are addressing several specific points. All of this has been a public process,’’ Robbins said. “We have striven for something that is rate neutral for the customers. We do not think Empire’s electric customers should be paying for a recreational trout facility downstream from the project. We are sympathetic to their situation.’’ Davis, in a telephone interview with the Globe, said he sees it another way. ‘Got to them’ “Somebody got to them. I’m not sure who,’’ he said. “They issued a final report and then all of a sudden a proposed addendum comes out of nowhere without any consultation with the regulatory agencies from the affected states. The first we knew about it is when it appeared in the Federal Register. “This is something the SWPA thought up on their own. We had one shot to compensate Empire and ultimately their customers for losing this electric capacity. The first offer was a little low, but acceptable. The addendum cut it in half, which is not acceptable.’’ By cutting Empire’s hydropower capacity, the federal government is forcing it to rely more on other power plants that are less carbon-friendly, thus more costly, under a new national energy policy. Davis said the White River project is coming at a time when the federal government and the Obama administration are pushing renewable energy. For the SPWA to deny any compensation for the increasing value of the renewable energy that Empire is losing “makes no sense.’’ “We’re trading renewable electric capacity that can’t be replaced for year-round trout fishing on the White River. That’s not so repugnant, but they don’t want to fairly compensate the ratepayers of Missouri for the electricity,’’ he said. Reallocation The fishery, recreation and flood-control aspects of the lakes along the White River and its tributaries are controlled by the Corps of Engineers in the Little Rock (Ark.) District. P.J. Spaul, spokesman for the Corps in Little Rock, said the Water Resource Development Act passed by Congress in 1999 authorized reallocation of storage on five lakes in the White River system. The reallocation would increase storage by 1.5 feet in Beaver Lake, 2 feet in Table Rock Lake, 5 feet in Bull Shoals Lake, 3.5 feet in Norfork Lake and 3 feet in Greer’s Ferry Lake, which is in Arkansas. The language of the bill was unusual in that authorization was completed before the study was done, which is not the norm. Usually, a study is completed and then a project is authorized, Spaul said. The language of the act said reallocation would occur if a study by the Corps found that the work was “technically sound, environmentally acceptable and economically justified,’’ he said. As the study progressed, it became apparent that Beaver, Table Rock and Greer’s Ferry would be removed for technical, environmental and economic reasons. Subsequent legislation removed them. But Bull Shoals and Norfork were left in, though their ability to control flooding and produce energy were reduced. A cost analysis by the Corps also found that providing a minimum flow on the White River for trout would have a total annual net benefit of nearly $1.6 million for Bull Shoals. The Norfork project would have a total annual net loss of $20,600. “This is not something that the Corps did on its own. This is something Congress directed us to do in an unbiased and impartial manner. We let the science and economics drive the study and the conclusions we came to,’’ Spaul said. For the minimum-flow project to go forward, it will still have to be funded by Congress. Said Spaul: “If Congress does not fund, we cannot implement.’’ The Associated Press contributed to the report.

T/t Jeremy today. He said the Corp would LOVE to write a ticket but they have to see it done personally almost to make it stick. Hard to do. But he did confirm it's a huge fine.

THEY may not even have the number... that's what is so amazing about this event.

I told Brian he was the hand of God yesterday. No one else could have called inside the powerhouse- I don't even keep that number in my phone. But because he has called, made friends with the people in the powerhouse over the years, he and he alone had the number and knew who to call. It would have taken him 10 minutes to drive to the other side of the lake and even then, might not had gotten to the powerhouse to tell the controller. He could have signaled them by using the emergency phone at outlet number two but even then, it might have been too late. Few of us are given second chances. Clearly, this angler was given one. If anyone else would have been in Brian's place, that guy would have been dead today. Give Brian a deserving pat on the back... give God the glory for another day because everyday is a gift from Him.

Got out after 5 pm this evening but more of that later.This weekend's fishing was really good. Friday was excellent fishing, whether you were using bait or lures. Fished in the old RiverLake area using a ginger 1/8th oz jig and working it off the bottom- caught some REAL nice rainbows, they looked like they came from be low the dam. Clients caught lots of rainbows off the dock, even today fishing was real good. Night crawlers were the ticket today I was told.This evening, they ran one units for a couple hours, dropping about starting about 6:30 pm till dark. I started at the Rebar Hole and threw my jigs down to Lookout without much success. Saw Carolyn Parker with some gals fishing across from the boat ramp and they were catching fish ok. Having may too much fun. "> " type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="580" height="360"> When I got below Lookout, I switched to a micro jig, tan, under a float 5 feet. Man I had a good time! Caught rainbows all the way down to the narrows without a pause. Stayed in the middle and tried to fish the drop off. From 11 to 18 inches. Broke the jig off at the end so tied on a #16 red zebra and kept on catching. "> " type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="580" height="360"> "> " type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="580" height="360"> "> " type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="580" height="360">

Nope- guides only contribute a fraction, very small fraction of what is shared here. That was another one of my points. Probably should have PM'ed you... sorry about that.

A mature forum is always going to have bitching and moaning, disagreements and even hard feelings. Cause we're all different and in the population there's all kinds of personalities. Over the years, people have come and gone for varying reasons. Some come back, others don't. But if they want good fishing info for Table Rock, they'll come back cause there isn't any other place like this. That doesn't mean someone can't go and start another forum. That's fine. I hope them all the best. OAF isn't just Table Rock. I'm so thrilled we have other waters doing so well. It's also seasonal. But I have to admit, happily that the Table Rock's success is directly related to guides posting reports and helping anglers with info on the lake. If we had guides from LOZ, it would be hoppin' too.

The Table Rock forum here on OAF is the best forum and source of fishing information anywhere on the net, anywhere in any form of public media, free or not. And the guides and others who fish the lake alot make it so. There's no doubt about that. But no one on the board can be thin skinned. If they are, they won't last - on this forum or any other. If someone gets offended by what has been said here the last few days or week and want not to post anymore, I can't do anything about it, and no one else can either. If someone is thin skinned and can't take criticism or for that matter, a "troll" every once in a while, then sooner or later they will be gone, if not now, later. That's it, plain and simple. In this or any other public arena, you're gonna get mud thrown at you. The goods one will always have those who stick up for ya... that's the proof in the pudding if you're doing a good job. And there's plenty sticking up here, including me. I just won't use my ultimate power to stop it unless it gets real ugly.... or long, ongoing, stupid, boring, or as Trav used to post... a dead horse.

Ok... by that definition he's a troll. He has the potential to do more but that's up to him. fishinwrench - you're over the top and it is obvious that you don't care if you tick the guides off, or anyone else. I see you're on Lake of the Ozarks and that may speak to your indifference to the Table Rock forum. Coldwaterfisher spoke tongue and cheek but you are taking it pretty far, saying they are giving bad or even lying about where they're fishing. I think you need to cool your jets.

Just saw this post. I assume you have an ear to the guides or you wouldn't be saying it. So because of one guy the board is taking a turn. Because of one guy, guides on Table Rock won't post here anymore? I honestly don't understand their beef. Why do they post advise, reports? What is the motivation? For business? For fun? Just to be a nice guy? For respect? For notoriety? Why does anyone post? Because they love fishing. Love to fish. coldwter has been on the forum since the beginning, or close to it. He's not a troll. But I do see your point that he isn't a contributor to the forum. I wish he was. He has alot to offer I believe. At this point, I could delete post, delete topics, close topics. But not sure if it's going to appease the situation. We'll see where it goes from here.

While in a boat, you do need to be careful not to transport rainbows from below to above Fall Creek. If they are in the slot, you'll get in trouble. But if you clean your fish (below) and drive to the dam and keep them in your car/cooler, you're ok.

You guys can organize any gathering you want to... you don't need me to sanction it. Although I'd back you 100% and attend if I can. Just need someone to get it going and make arraignments if needed. The one thing I've found though it to make it far enough in advance to allow people to schedule it. At least a month out.