tjm

So, lets think about this, consider a bead head zebra midge, it is a jig by virtue of the heavy bead, it looks essentially like a perdigon (except the perdigon has the tail consistent with mayflies) and either can be cast with a floating line or with a bobber or with a mono rig (something that Humphreys advocated for nymph fishing @1980), so if one is a "fly" the other must be too? If both are flies the using either must be "fly fishing"? So the objection to " letting it bounce along the bottom in riffles" is that the fly is "dead drifting" (letting it bounce along) or that it is on the bottom or that it is in the riffles? Dead drift is accepted dry fly strategy so that can't be a problem, fishing in riffles must surely be acceptable? That only leaves the fact that the fly is near the bottom? So is any use of a submerged fly not "fly fishing"? or is there a precise distance above the bottom that makes it acceptable? I have never seen a universally accepted definition of fly fishing because it is continuously changing, the system is fluid and elastic, we can cast up stream or across, use floating line or sinking line invent new patterns at will, cast overhead or underhand, or roll cast, even use a dry fly as a suspension device so that others don't notice we are bobber fishing. Use a single fly or a team of flies. We can't even define what constitutes a "fly"- MDC tried to for decades and most recently said "or any other material" attached to a single point hook. In some jurisdictions double hooks are acceptable. I say "fly rod fishing" for my own way of doing it and use jigs, flies, spoons, or live bait as my mood strikes all with a single action reel and "fly rod". For your personal definition you are welcome to add any personal restrictions that please you, but no beads, no bead chain, no cones, no dumbbells, no submersion, sorta limits you to pure dry fly presentation and at that point you should also cast only to rising fish and only upstream, in the true Euro tradition.

What defines fly fishing as "fly fishing" is the state law. It varies with location. Where I started fly rod fishing, "fly fishing" was indeed defined by the reel, on "fly fishing only" waters you had to use a "single action fly reel" and a "fly rod", I once asked a 'warden' if use of worms with a fly rod and reel would be legal and the reply was that the requirement only pertained to rod and reel. If you fish in "fly fishing only" water in Mo. you can use any method as long as the lure has "any other material" permanently attached to the hook.

The government passes out dangerous misinformation all the time, always has. The USS Maine, Pearl Harbor, Ira Hayes, USS Turner Joy, weapons of mass destruction are just highlights. But all that gets a free pass. I guess that after a while all this stuff dished out by the political handlers over the last couple of years will be accepted too.

In Mo. casting a Rooster Tail with a Snoopy rod is fly fishing. Many jigs are flies, bead-head and dumbbell "flies" are Jigs. But nymph fishing? A hundred years ago GEM Skues and Frank Sawyer. both European British, wrote extensively on fly fishing with a nymph. Again almost a hundred years ago in this country Ted Fay and Ted Towendolly among others made fly fishing with a nymph the main attraction on the Sacramento River, some/most of Jim Leisenring's flies and methods were fly fishing with a nymph. More recently Joe Humphreys ~1980 wrote a bunch about fly fishing with nymphs. And all favored longer rods than a six or seven foot dry fly rod. The only objectionable thing I find with "Euro-nymphing" is the "Euro" and idea that it is something new, most of the the techniques have been around a long while and some were borrowed from the Wintu Indians. Sure we have longer lighter rods that allow us to stand farther away from the fish, but that is due Graphite which didn't grow in Europe but was hatched by Shakespeare and Fenwick, former American companies. The Vlad that started the modern nymphing craze showed up at the fishing contest with only knee boots so he had to use a longer rod, but his fathers style of fishing is something that I learned from Sawyer's book. This is actually called "Contact Nymphing" now I believe. Maybe to take away Euro/new world order connotation. What is not fly fishing is dragging a fly or nymph along under a bobber, but that's become acceptable.

I think from Phil's reply just above that we can infer the scuds aren't always that numerous in the water column. "we see this happen when they run gates, they run so much water that it rolls the gravel. That's when the scuds are relocated. "

Both political parties have been pushing division for years, I think they swap out incumbency just often enough to stir the pot. A divided populace is the best way to implement central control. Keep the groups at odds with each other over stupid stuff and none will become strong enough to threaten the controllers. They have really gotten mileage out of this "pandemic" and they will continue to as long as the public watches videos and listens to broadcast media.

Is there a good antibody test? where to get it? I guess I probably just had the third go-round if it, never tested because of test availability, but this time the wife tested positive and we were sick together. Really mild symptoms for us both, but it canceled Christmas, New Years and a grandchild's birthday party.

This article goes with the video and has the list of folks that did not come. And contains some links.

try this

There's always one or two in any group has to be all emotional about stuff that really doesn't matter and that we can't change. It makes arguing reasonably for entertainment next to impossible. Every thread shut down on every forum gets so because participants get emotions out and wave them around trying to get their feelings hurt, then cry when it happens, forcing Admins to make rules. That aside the Covid crap was made political a couple years ago at a national level, by leaders that just don't care about the nation or the people, and because of that and the highly emotional impact the politics has on some of our members any discussions of covid should be in the political forum. Even if you want prayers, just say you're sick or that your loved ones are, no need to Name the Particular Political Strain and start another round VAX talk. I visit a few forums where Covid-19 is unmentionable even in the den/lodge/password areas. I don't like censorship, but at the end of the day this forum is private property and if the owner says we have to follow rules in order to play here, it's his call and his appointed moderator/executioner.

Is what you call high sticking the stuff that Ted Fay made famous? or more like Joe Humphreys nymph tactics?

You probably don't want to mess with it, but, Kaatz is offering $75/lb for dry castor. Peterman isn't too far from you and wants castor, I don't know for what price, but if you are setting traps it might be worth looking into. o, Peterman is buying otters and skulls too

Show how bad my biology is`, at RRSP last fall; I was watching what I thought was an otter for several minutes, then it finally turned away and waddled off, man that was the biggest groundhog that I've ever seen! Looked like a 30#er. But like that big bass it got away.

Not long ago, a week or three, either someone told me or I read it here that he'd seen beavers eating trout at RRSP. Might have been the local preacher I can't recall, but maybe beavers eat the same things as those muskrats. Like I said I'm not a biologist.

Thanks. There were muskrats here then, guess I think of them as vegetarians.

IIRC the line was "unknown hundreds of species" or something that effect. But that doesn't matter. What ever I saw was over 60 years ago and I wasn't a biologist. Hadn't even heard of biologists even. btw, welcome to the forum

Not that deer weren't native, just that there weren't any in this area for a long time, I didn't play on the Sac in the '50s, but in my memories of crossing it before Truman was built it didn't look much like these creeks. "some areas" does not mean all areas. I' never talked to Barnhart, so no doubt you know more than I. I did read somewhere that thousands or dozens of species of mussels were lost or endangered by the damming of the White. That makes me wonder if you mussels are even the same species? Not that it matters at all but those shells I saw were probably squirrel eggs shells. Carry on.

In the Elk or Illinois drainage? Not 'coons? Grandpa must have been mistaken, so what did make those piles? I don't even know if 'coons eat the things. AFAIK we didn't have otters in the '50s. Honestly I don't look hard or seine the gravel or anything, but you know what? I didn't do that as a ten year old either. So, maybe what i played with wasn't mussels at all?

This^^, and it may be too late in many areas. When I was a kid in the '50s I used to find dozens of mussels in these creeks, maybe three kinds, and see piles of shells (10-30) where 'coons had dined but it has been more than thirty years since I've seen either a live mussel or a pile of shells. Only occasionally see one or two broken shells. I recall asking adults if they were edible or good to eat, folks that ate anything during the Depression, and the answers varied from one person to another; but my recollection is that different varieties taste different and that over all mammals made better food. I was never encouraged to eat them.

Thanks, now that's three things that I would not have thought to take on an extended camp out. I guess I'm lazy, but I tend to plan for less work. And less bulk.

I have a couple of just curious questions, Why would you need ice on a float trip? It seem like a lot of extra weight and trouble, but the nearest I done to something like this is multi-day wilderness horseback. How long do you expect/ plan the trip to take? Solo?

@bfishnI used fish Spavinaw when I worked in Gravette. The Osage was full of trout back then too, releases/escapees from local rearing facilities, even up to what was then Horse Barn Rd. and almost to Elm Springs. It was a while ago, '90s maybe.

So, in theory the creek could be bone dry in long stretches yet in the intermittent/scattered flowing sections still be cool enough and oxygenated enough to support trout? I know a branch like that will have 1/4 mile of dry gravel then flow with current over a hundred yards or so of limestone with sunfish and minnows in the pools. Even far downstream of where the trout temperatures normally exist, wouldn't that resurfacing water be as cool as spring water? meaning trout could live through droughts in sections that are normally too warm from surface heat?

Seemed to be a lot more water there when the creek was very low in town. Must be more springs between town bridge and that bridge? can we access the water in that image?

So, does this ignore button filter out the quotes that it seems 90% of replies have? like, if I ignore user A and user B quotes user A will the quote box be empty? or does it explain all the replies to the stuff the ignored posted, or just leave them looking nonsensical?