Chief Grey Bear

Lead core rods????? Or is this lead core line???? I have heard but never used the lead core line. But rods???? Did I misunderstand this????

I have noticed some major changes since I was a kid in the 70's. I may not have been a serious fisherman but, I spent a major amount of my childhood, and now adulthood, on the rivers and creeks. And in that early time with my father, every shallow water area was practically littered with the shedded exoskeleton of the crawdad. Now it can be somewhat difficult to find one at all. I am so glad that I was able to show my son and daughter the the process of a crawdad shedding it's hard outer skin and becoming very soft and immobile. I have also noticed there are not anywhere near the amount of minnows that there used to be. You used to be able to scoop them up by the bucket full. Literally. And now, even though it appears that we still have a large population of minnows, I wouldn't be afraid to say it is not a 1/3 of what it was. I haven't been frogging in years. Used too it wouldn't take but maybe an hour or two to get a limit of frogs. Now you may have to go for a week to get a one night limit. And the ones you do find are not near as big as they were years ago. When we ate frogs, the legs were with out a doubt as big as a chicken drumstick. Not so anymore. Sure you will occasionally find one but, it is rare. I don't think it is the frogs are not producing, I think it is the tadpoles not completing the cycle to adulthood. That is if the eggs do experience a successfull hatch. Grasshoppers? We used to go out at night with a light and pluck them off of fences along dirt roads. In 15 minutes we had a mayo jar stuffed. But not so much anymore. It seems like now I search for an hour for just a couple dozen. If that. Leeches. Dad and I used to head out after and hit some mud flats on Spring River and in just a couple of hours we could have bucket full of leeches. Not the blood sucking kind but, the other kind that could stretch out many times their length. Great catfish bait. I still see one every now and then but, it is pretty rare. Hellgrammites. I used to find these under every rock in the creek. Now you have to look pretty hard to find one. I never did like to fish with them, so I would just play with them for a bit and let them go. Mussels it seems are very rare to find. Especially the larger ones. I remember when the rivers were full of them. I used to use them for bait all the time. Now I still find one a live occasionally. And it is a treat to do so. Now, what does this have to do with how I think the fishing was 40 years ago as compared to today? Every species I mentioned, except the mussel, is forage for bass. And with a decrease in forage, I would think we would have to experience a drecrease in numbers of not only bass but, other species of fish that also compete for this food supply. I took this question to my father this weekend, who has been running and fishing these same waters that he taught me to fish and respect and now I am teaching my son the same, for 70 years and he said the fishing today is nothing like it was. And he points to the same reasons I listed above. Even though I had realized these changes in our environment, it wasn't until we were discussing it that I began to see just how much it had changed right in front of me. He points to the wide spread and unregulated use of fertilizers and pesticides. I agree with that and add the boom in septic tanks that now dot the country side and the huge increase in livestock production including beef, dariy, turkeys, chickens and hogs. And increased crop prduction. All of this at some point runs into the waterways. And that has had a devastating effect on the ecology.

Hey, you guy's ain't done are ya???? I was really enjoying this one.

Now that is a "photo essay" hands down! I want to not only compliment you on the quality of the photos but also the subject. You had some great material to work with.

Not this year. Maybe if it was on Shoal....

Ouch. I put the meat saw to that one didn't I. I don't know about you but, I have never seen much of anything growing on land that that is overgrazed. Over logged?? I guess. Maybe. I believe I mentioned the fire. Now as for your link, seems to be more fiction than fact. Myth: Cedar competes with other trees for water, eventually killing them. Fact: There appears to be little or no evidence that cedar competitively replaces other trees. Myth: A full-grown cedar tree will suck up 80 to 150 gallons of water a day. Fact: A mature cedar will use about 33 gallons of water per day. A live oak of comparable size will use about 19 gallons per day I don't know but using almost double the water per day is pretty good competition. I like this one too: Myth: Cedar causes erosion. Fact: Cedar brakes protect watersheds from erosion much better than the poor grass cover typical of overgrazed Hill Country ranches

Though Cedar is native to Missouri, it can also be classified as an envasive species. Without the natural fires that took place before we fixed it, Cedars used to be kept in check. Many of them would burn with the wild prairie and forest fires. But such is not the case now and they can take over and become the dominate species very quickly due in part to a relitive fast growth rate. And once they get a foothold, they will choke out everything else. And at one time Cedars were havested like the mighty oak. In fact they were floated to Branson down the James and White for a short period of time. They were used mainly for post. Railroads used the larger ones for the telegraph lines. They were to last 75 to 100 years and thus very low maintanence.

We really need a campfire for this conversation! For sure floating started in the east. I think in fact, if I remember my history, the jon boats actually came from the Current. Long before Charlie was credited with making them. I knew the Meramec was popular near the St. Louis area but I have never heard about the Black. I have read that passage by Larry many times. In fact I love this one from a 1893 Jack's Fork trip: "Tipped over twice on snags. No fault of any except Fairbanks and Culley who were never too good as lookouts. Lost one rifle, two shotguns, fishing tackle, six gallons of whiskey. We will go home tomorrow as we are out of whiskey." Now in that passage you quoted in regard to the 452 fish trip, I believe it was all fish caught not just the one kept. Where would they have stored that many fish??? I wish he would have put forth a little more info on the trips!!! But he is like that. Kinda like when he beats the hell out of the MDC on some issues, "has his big high powered meetings" with the director in Jeff City but won't say what he found out. If he did, it would deflate his cause. Notice how he finally shut up on the issue of the western Missouri judge. Anyway that is not the discussion here. There were some log/tie floats down the White from Branson to as far as Cotter. But I don't think there were many. I think the floats lasted a short period of time. And really, the White was about the only waterway over here that I think would have been capable of this. At least not for the large rafts that were common in the eastern part of the state. But yeah, there was a lot of logging happening in SWMO. Reeds Spring was the largest supplier of White Oak ties in the US from 1910 to 1925. But it is atop one of the "mountains" here and thus all ties were brought in by wagon and shipped out on rail.

I will agree there are a lot of variables to the question. And I am not sure a definitive answer will ever be achieved. A couple of points though. Most if not all tie float and log floats happened in East/Southeast Missouri. As that is where the tie companies were located. Few if any occured in South/Southwest Missouri. And with that, most of the guide trips that we read about happened in South/Southwest Missouri. On such waters as the James, White, Kings and also some north flowing rivers headed for the mighty Mo. But it is also a notable point about the depression. But you know, I have had a lot of conversations with many of the old timers that lived in that era, as I am sure you have too, and I really don't recall them talking about keeping large amounts of fish. I know that they kept their share. But you always hear about the hog butchering in the fall, hunting, and fattening a calf. I am not really sure how important a roll fish played in their diet. That would be some interesting research though. But you are right, I think the 1950's and beyond had a definite effect on the rivers as far as fishing. Resovoirs became very important in changing the landscape in not only their creation but also the fishing would be created. And just maybe we can credit the crappie and white bass for some of that.

Maximum potential of what? I have looked at hundred's of photo's from early to mid 20th century fishing trips and guided fishing trips. You would be very hard pressed to find a photo of nothing but huge bass. The vast majority of those old photos showed a couple or so really nice, decent bass and a butt load of smaller ones. And in studying not only the photos but also trip reports from the day, they really don't seem to be any different than what we are enjoying today. Now with that said, I think that with todays technology and soft plastic baits, it has afforded us the privilege to catch a greater number of fish over a greater amount of water.

Sorry, my mistake.

Well it could have been worse. I could have put the lyrics to "You light up my life".

Yeah. You should see him dancing around on the tudra playing his ukulele and singing the "Safty Dance". We can dance if we want to. We can leave your friends behind. Cause' your friend don't dance, and if they don't dance, well they're no friends of mine. Say, we can go where we want to. A place where they will never find. And we can act like we come from out of this world. Leave the real one far behind. We can dance. We can go where we want to. A place where they will never find. And we can act like we come from out of this world. Leave the real one far behind. We can dance. We can go when we want to. Night is young and so am I. And we can dress real neat from our hands to our feet and surprise you with a victory cry. Say, we can act if we want to. If we don't nobody will. And you can act real rude, and totally remove and I can act like an imbecile. We can dance. We can dance. Everything's under control. We can dance. We can dance. Doin it pole to pole. We can dance. We can dance. Everybody look at your hands. We can dance. We can dance. Everybody's takin' the chance. Safety Dance.

I forgot to add that if you are going to point the finger and call others purist, I wouldn't be knocking spin fishermen.

Purist? Not by any means. A sportsman? You bet.

No he didn't make it up. But remember, he is a self proclaimed Google expert. Are you sure it was a man that jumped you??? Is this that kind of forum???

Nice! I was just looking at the Creek today and thought wow it really looked good. This weekend should be very good for a trip. I will just have to decide whether I want to hunt or fish. Where is that Jeopardy music coming from?????

You can't even convince the locals on this board that don't get paid.

MMMMMMMMMM. We seem to be missing a whole post.

NOT a good idea.

Really? What do you have against us???? Oh so do you have some inside info the rest of don't?? How do you know what time he gets out of bed? How do you know is car is not fully-licensed?? What the hell is a half licensed car anyway? How do you know he didn't follow the speed limit?? On a side note, I'll put a $100 to your $1 you are known to speed. How do you know he doesn't do what his wife/grilfriend tells him to do?? How do you know he doesn't pay taxes? And if did any of these, I would say he is generally working within the system. When are you gonna do another one of fly swap's?? Word on the street is that worked out pretty good for you.

Oh now, hvae you never misplaced a couple of letter??? What the heck is Google foo????

What is a stuanch republican conservitive like you doing on site like that???

WOW, It looks like I was looking right at the camera. But I never knew you even had a camera. I had a great time. I actually spent more time there than I had planned on. It was great seeing everone again. And seeing some new faces. It was a honor to meet you Terry. We may not agree on some things but I think you are fine upstanding gentleman. I concur Ollie, I cry foul too. I think that was a pic of one I caught in Hickory a few week ago.