troutfiend1985

Chief, the prosecution would have a great case. The idea of backing off a case like this solely for the idea that a jury might not buy it is a pretty weak move. And if you really think about it, most likely this case wouldn't even had made it to the jury anyways, 96% of all convictions happen in the pretrial phase because of a plea bargain. And 90% of all cases that are prosecuted end in a conviction. With this, and the fact that the evidence points against the guy who shot the lion, I think that this would have been an easy case to at least file. What I am really wondering is what the hell the MDC's stance is on Mountain Lions. It seems to be deny that they exist in the first case, then oh well if someone shoots a mountain lion because we don't want them anyways. I really don't buy the idea of not prosecuting in this case and I guess I'm more shocked that an agency like this resorts to politics over enforcement. And its not like this is some town out in the middle of nowhere, this is a small town outside of Kansas City and I have been there many times. Oh well, whats done is done.

Well, self defense would not be as hard to prove as I think we have made here on the forum. Questions like: Did you report this into the local authorities as soon as the incident was over? Did the mountain lion try to attack you? Why would you try to cover up this incident if it was really a self defense situation? Did the mountain lion ever get down from the tree, or did you shoot it while it was in the tree? And I am sure that a reasonable Attorney knowing the facts can find plenty more wholes to punch in a self defense claim. The nail in the coffin is the fact that he went up to his buddy(or whoever this rancher was) to have him take the credit for the shooting. Why else would you do this unless you had knowledge that you did not shoot this animal legally? unless there is something more to this situation then I think a reasonable jury could find that the Prosecution would meet its burden of proof. Besides these obvious things that a reasonable person would have noticed in the situation, this person has impeached his own credibility through prior inconsistent statements. Also, you would probably charge him with something equivelant to obstruction of justice, and his buddy with aiding, or whatever the applicable statute has in that territory. I'm not sure how this is a lose-lose. Yeah, the guy may be a "local hero" in some peoples eyes. But to some this guy is no better than a worthless scum of the earth poacher. How is this a case lost? I see this as an unenforceable law that should be taken off of the books if this is how the MDC will handle these situations. Here, the MDC has now sent a message that if you see one and shoot it dead, it is relativly easy to claim this self defense. The MDC is an agency who is supposed to uphold its own laws, even when doing so may be unpopular. I know there is a political side to what the MDC does, but police departments also operate a political campaign through community policing, yet they still arrest those who violate the law. Law is law, if its on the books then enforce it. If you can't win on that charge, then find a charge that you can prevail on to make sure that people know that there is bite behind these laws. I would have a hard time seeing self defense as being a ligitimate defense unless the MDC is now saying that Mountain Lions are unreasonably dangerous and you are within your rights to shoot one on sight because they will attack you unprovoked. Surely this is not the message that any governmental agency is wanting to send to its tax base, otherwise we are running back into the 19th century views of large predators. So I guess what I am trying to say is that I really don't feel that I am throwing punches at the MDC, rather the MDC is running into my fist.

I guess. I've never been hunting for raccoons, but it sounds like there was some drinking involved in this situation, if not drug use. Gosh, one idiot meets up with another and next thing you know a whole town looks horrible.

I'm just wondering why these two idiots didn't just leave the lion? It would seem that it would be a hard case to prove that these two guys were indeed the individuals that killed the mountain lion but for them admitting. I don't know, low intelligence + a gun = nothing good IMO. I can't see why the MDC isn't doing anything about this. You know, I used to defend the MDC somewhat, but lately they have lost every ounce of credibility and trust that I have of them. Too bad that our tax money goes to this agency, and too bad they lack the courage/backbone to enforce their own regulations. These guys who shot the mountain lion are criminals in my books and I don't see anything that would convince me otherwise. And if it were upt to me I would charge the guy who was trying to take the fall for this with obstruction of justice. This is one big black eye for the MDC, and I won't be forgetting about it anytime soon.

Jeremy that is an awesome tie you got going there. I am really starting to get into Kelly's flies, mainly the circus peanut and sex dungeon. I was wondering was weight rod you are using on these?

I am a Teimco guy, but I think my next order will be Allen hooks. I am really becoming a midge guy and I wish that Allen hooks made sizes down to 24, but it seems that they stop at 18 so my midges will still be Teimco. I have also tried Eagle Claw hooks and I would recommend them to a friend. Price is right and your not losing anything IMO. The only drawback is if you’re a midge guy you will have to look somewhere else for anything below sz. 20.

I remember about 5 years ago or so that I saw a pair of bald eagles along with one of its young which did not have a "bald" or white head. It was a neat expereince as I was inside of the KC Metro area and to see bald eagles, let alone a pair with its youth was an incredible expereince. Just make sure not to pick up any feathers as I am sure you know that bald eagles are federally proteccted. While they may have a vulture like feeding method, they are an incredible bird that I love to see in the wild.

Maybe the MDC is doing this in order to avoid raising the prices?? And really, where is the slight of hand with the "product"? Are the streams less fishable? Are the deer running into neighboring states because of the lack of yellow paper? And how about convenience? I think this is a great move, no longer do I have to go to Dicks or Wal-MArt and waste 20 minutes of my life because the vendor had no clue in what he/she is doing. I just don't see the complaint, where is the injury in fact? Or is it that we're complaining to complain?

WE've had some pretty long and detailed conversations on topics very similar to this in the past. I don't know if Capps could be an all out blue ribbon stream, but it would seem that a C&R zone would be worthwhile. No use beating a dead horse here, I think that you can find some discussion on one of the old posts.

First, this mountain lion had killed several calfs according to the KC Star. Second, dogs and mountain lions are substantially different in that dogs are domesticated and mountain lions are wild predators. Also, decr lack the propensity for danger that a wild predator has. Why are you comparing dogs and deer, both of which are common to this area, to Mountain lions, which most people are unfamiliar with? And what was this guys options? Call the MDC and have them tell you that Mountain Lions don't exist in Missouri unless you yourself have evidence of their existence(this is basically what they told my brother)? This guy lets his grandchildren play in the backyard, this Mountain Lion was in the backyard and had already taken several calfs and the MDC doesn't exactly show too much interest in these types of situations, so what is he to do? Not that I think you should shoot mountain lions on sight, but that is not what this individual did according to the KC Star. I think what really needs to happen is that the MDC needs to get off their butt and start telling people what the current situation of mountain lions are in Missouri, what to do when you see one and what threats/non-threats these animals pose. To me, the real culprit was not the man with the gun, but the agency that has continued to show a lack on interests in addressing the concerns of their citizens about this animal.

I think this is why Lilley doesn't let us talk politics, somehow the conversation always turns out so intelligently.

And it was a great day, 65 degrees and the ice was off(who knows if it is still off right now). Caught 6 or 7, all on the fly rod. The fish seemed active and they were around the 9-11 inch range. Mainly on olive colored micro jigs. One guy was tearing them up on a San Juan Worm. Anyone been out lately?

Cool fish, Buzz do you suppose this is how you caught that monster in Hickory? I have one final left, then freedom for about 3 & 1/2 weeks. So I'm looking forward to going out and getting a little fishing in. Wish I could hook into a fish like that, just for the novelty of it. Tight Lines

Wayne, I don't think that a lot of these people are the "privileged few" rather they are tax payers like you and I. I would imagine(note, this is my opinion only) that the winter urban stockings mean more to those who lack the fiscal abilities to travel to the Ozarks. Why would I say that? Because the privileged few are either: 1. in Florida playing golf for the winter or 2. Able to go to Yellowstone/Colorado to go fishing. Poor urban residents probably aren't going to either of those locations anytime soon, and for a form of recreation trout in ponds is a way to pass a day. And I'm not sure why stocking the Urban areas is such a shock, look at our white ribbon areas. I am still waiting to finish up that letter to the MDC(school has been kicking my butt this year) about how we are mismanaging a resource. Right now, you could draw a lot similarities between the two, so I will save time and put the major difference: there is a small percentage of fish that survive the onslaught of catch and keep practices(there are other small differences but I lack the time to spell out the alphabet). And your "never see again" misses the point. Trout are fishable in the winter. What else is there to fish for in the winter besides a limited amount of Crappie fishing(and note; limited)? What is the main grief over stocking trout in a pond for the winter? If this is allocation of resources, then we should also be griping over white ribbon areas, especially Hickory, Capps and Robidoux in my experiences. The idea, at least to me, is that fishing is a hobby/passion. It doesn't take a lot of money, which is why it appeals to some. It also is a way to get out of the house, which I think is the best thing the urban program offers. These are just my opinions. If you think the urban program is a waste, that's fine but we have to remember this is only a hobby we're talking about and not life and death.

Well the Urban program has some benefits. I know that when I was at KCKCC we took some kids from 3rd and long to fish for trout at Wyandotte County Lake(yes, not MO but the conclusion is the same). These kids would have never known what a trout was(or for some what fishing was) if we didn't take them out there that day. These ponds do provide some benefits to the urban dwellers who would otherwise not be exposed to trout fishing, either because they never really knew it existed or that they lack the money to travel. And anways, how long does the average fish last in Bennett? Sure there are some that make it a long time, but most don't. And there is nothing normal/natural about Trout Parks. This does not mean there is anything is wrong with Bennett, its just that you have to go to these parks expecting something different than a pristine wild trout stream.

Where is the highbank hole at? Is it in the park?

I have the one for a 5 wieght and I absolutely love it. I've had it for three years now and never once had a complaint. Really smooth drag and easy maintenance. Two thumbs up here.

That's got me excited, I'm hoping that the spawn goes well this year and we don't have any flooding. And hopefully people will realize that targeting fish on a redd can really hurt a little creek like Crane.

Cool topic OTF. I guess my coolist fish would have to be either the 19.5' rainbow I caught in one our wild trout streams or the 20.5' Mountain Whitefish I caught on the Gallatin this summer. I know, some people will snub their nose at a whitefish, but this thing was pretty neat with its uglyness and fighting. Or maybe it was the setting of Yellowstone and all, or the fact that I lost a really good rainbow right before I landed this whitefish(the rainbow snapped 4x tippet). I can't honestly think of any fish that I have personally caught and said it shouldn't have been there, but I know of two. I heard that a guy caught a muskie in Smithville lake, and those aren't stocked there by the trucks(maybe by buckets though;) ) And, I have a friend at law school who caught a trout out of lake shawnee in June. That was a shocker, then to read in the topeka capital journal that they have found trout with tags on them from over a year old, so something weird is going on there. I like this topic!!

If the only purpose for stocking these fish were for dinner then I can see how this argument makes sense. But I think, and have seen on MDC's website is that this urban trout program is also there to supplement fishing in urban areas where there would not otherwise be a viable winter fishing species. So with that in mind, I can see why MDC has regulations on keeping trout. It makes sense, we don't want to spend more money than we have to in order to provide this form of recreation, and like you said these fish aren't going to survive throughout the year. Thus, why not make the amount of fish last as long as we can for the least amount of resources spent? I'm hardly going to buy that the guys sitting on the buckets are the only reason that the Urban Trout Fishing program exists, they may be a part of the reason, but this is no excuse to deplete a resource. Yes, I said resource in reference to stocked trout that have no chance of surviving. This is a resources because it is public and is a way of people to spend their leisure time. What's is the best for the most? To have a stocking truck continuously restock a pond that has no way of sustaining trout past late April, or to regulate these areas in order to extend a resource? I see no problem with keeping trout for dinner, and that’s not my point. My point is, especially in regards with KC where there is no C&R regulations, there needs to be regulations to maximize the amount of quality angling provided by our resources. Just my opinion.

Just to add to this, its not only good practice for conservation but also for angling. In my experiences, you have a better chance at catching trout in small streams if your feet aren't in the water. Just my .02

I have fished at Alex George before many times and never noticed a problem with survival of the trout. That strikes me as really odd, as I have caught more trout there than at James A. Reed and the bite there always seemed more consistent. I hope this really has to do with survival conditions of the trout, but I'm smelling b.s. IMO

Yeah, from my experiences you'll see alot more bait fishing than jig fishing. But jig fishing can be very productive and it seems to get better as the winter goes on, maybe because the trout start to see all their buddies getting taken by dead minnows

Never personally been there, but I have fished Crane which seems to be similar. I would imagine a 3wt 8'6 rod would do fine(that's what I use for Crane at least). Tippets, anywhere from 5x-7x would be my recomendation. I don't think the trout will be too picky in the fly selection area, but some wooly buggers in black and olive sz 8-10, gray scuds, glo bugs and maybe some midges would suit well. I know that you have probably heard soomeone say that "the flies don't matter" and to an extent I would agree with this. Good luck, let us know how you did.

If you guys are having a points system, maybe you could have a one hour, one fly contest. I know they do that up there at Jackson Hole Wyoming. I've heard that its a blast. It could be interesting, limiting everyone to one fly of their choice for that particular hour, and then you could go back to normal fishing. Just a thought.