Comment Thread - Shuffling

[Phil Lilley]

We are trying to take a poll of sorts to the question of shuffling on Lake Taneycomo. It's a hot subject for many anglers, pro and con. In some states (New Mexico, Arkansas) the practice of attracting fish by dislodging rocks, gravel and other bottom materials is already illegal.

So sound off... but keep it respectful.

[CaptainT16]

I say Illegal! I also think posting signs like they do at the San Juan in CO might help? Let people know that it is wrong to shuffle and the harm it does due to the rivers. Hard telling though, signs don't help stop everything as most of know fishing down at Taney, but it might give people a lit more understanding. I also say.......

Post "convicted shufflers" pictures on billboards in area Fly shops, Outdoors stores and add a Wall of Shame to the parking lot at Taney! That will get everyones attention!

[Danoinark]

Again I would like to see this reg implemented on Taney and the other streams in Mo. I wish I had statistics from Ark to see how effective the reg is here. Any law written sure would have to be clear as to how shuffling is defined so there would be no gray area as to the violation....Dano

[tippet7]

The tough part about this would be the enforcement of the regulation.

I know there are officers that are in the area, I know I am not on the river every day of the year, but I have NEVER seen one wildlife officer on Taneycomo in the 5 years I have lived here.

Back in the summer, there was an article written about Taneycomo in a fly fishing magazine (cannot remember which one, but I think the article was called something like "Solving the mystery of the White River system") in one of the photos, there are several people fly fishing, looks like around outlet #2, you can see very clearly that there is one guy doing the shuffle. His head is down, rod is directly behind him.

My point is, its very obvious that it is being done, but the regulation will have to be enforced with a hefty fine to get the publics attention. And as Dano stated, the regulation would have to be gin clear in the wording.

[Randall]

the wording would be tricky, because there are instances when i have my fly at my feet, not fishing, but waiting to be able to cast.

i know that in the parks, chumming is illegal, i don't know if it is on taney too. i'd have to see the actual law to get a definition of chumming, but if the wording were changed to include something like: "any act performed with the intention of placing prey or food in the water column or surface for the purpose of causing fish to feed" there are probably better ways to word it, but you get the idea. this would apply to everyone on the water, fishing or not. if this were applied to at least the trophy section, it would do half the job of solving the problem. enforcing is another story, but the law would be there.

tippet, what would your idea of a heavy fine be?

[Flysmallie]

I have already stated that I feel shuffling should be illegal. Whether or not it is enforceable is unimportant. There are laws in every area that are not enforced. Wearing a seatbelt is the law. But if I'm sitting a a stop light next to a cop, and I'm not wearing my seatbelt, is he going to pull me over. Probably not. But when I have a passenger in my vehicle that does not normaly wear a seatbelt, I do have something to say when it is the law. Right now if I see someone shuffling all I can say is that I think it is unethical, they probably don't care. I also think it's unethical to climb in a tree with a high powered rifle and wait for a deer to come strolling along minding his own business. But that's the hunter's choice not mine. I'm not so radical that I belong to PETA or protest hunting, all my fishing buddies love to hunt, I just choose not to. Now If it was illegal and I saw someone doing it, then I would have something to say.

If we are to keep this act legal, since it makes it easy for some to fish, then we need to look at legalizing some other methods of taking fish and game in the state of Missouri. First we should legalize snagging. Right now our wildlife code states that all gamefish that are not hooked in the mouth must be released to the water unharmed. I know that I would have to consider fishing bass tournaments again, especially in the sping when these fish are on the nests. Another thing we should legalize is netting. Why should these shufflers have to go to all the trouble of bring a rod and reel, all they need is a net. Kick up a few rocks, net my limit, go home. I could be in and out with my limit in just a few minutes. And for all those deer hunters out there, how about baiting. We, as a state, have found this practice so unethical that we have rules against it in the state. (Wildlife Code - CSR 10-7.431) And this is no different than what shuffling is. This is the same basis that Arkanasas has used for their shuffling law. It states on their website. "No chumming is allowed in catch-and-release areas. This is defined as “to dislodge or deposit any substance not attached to a hook which may attract fish.” Chumming in catch-and-release areas is prohibited because normal trout feeding behavior can be disrupted and the stream environment can be damaged.

One common example of chumming is tossing canned corn into the water to stimulate feeding. The technique of dislodging material from the streambed to attract trout, known as the “San Juan Shuffle,” is also considered chumming." Can I buy some of that feed at the hatchery and just use it?

I know I'm on a rant, but I will end it with this. Several years ago our own Phil Lilley published an article called "Taneycomo Shuffle, Follow-up ". In that article he quoted retired MDC person Spence Turner as saying, "If Lake Taneycomo anglers requesting shuffling regulations were honest with themselves, the reason they want to make shuffling illegal is the belief shufflers are catching more trout than they catch."

Anybody here want to agree with Spence, I don't think Phil does, and I sure won't.

Catch something big!

Ronnie

[Fish Bork]

To me it's an ethical question not a environmental question. Taney is a man made ecosystem. Even the some of the scuds are not native. Just walking doen the "river" kicks up "bugs" which the trout have "learned" is an easy meal. I don't think there should be a change to the law there is no way MDC is gonna pay somebody to give tickets to people that "shuffle" It's amazing to see how you guys are so bent out of shape on this subject. Education can prevent this type of behavior and the enforcement of good morals not going at if from the angle that if you do it you will be punished. I don't do it and I think it is a weak way to fish but I don't see the need to make it illegal.

[snagged in outlet 3]

Illegal.

I have been thinking about this subject for as long as I have been fishing Taney. Been going there for over 20 years

My first reaction, I hate shuffling and I want those people to stop. I wanted them to stop so when they couldn't catch fish without dancing, THEY WOULD LEAVE, Taney is overwhelmed as it is.

I wanted them to stop because they ruined my fishing. When groups of guys start shuffling they attract most of the fish from the surrounding area and non-shufflers are forced to move to find fish. Take the 3 or 4 guys lined up in a row right in the middle of the river (top of rebar). Then another 3 or 4 in the river (below outlet 2) and that whole area is fishless for the rest of the anglers. In the early fall this is not only common but sometimes there are 3 to 5 different groups, or individuals, shuffling that same area.

So it's the "my fishing strategies don't affect you, but your strategies affect me". When looked at from that perspective maybe shuffling should be illegal. Lets face it, there just isn't alot of trophy water to be shared.

The only thing that keeps me from blowing a gasket is the thought that they never experience the same satisfaction I do when fishing. How hollow the shuffler must feel when he reflects back and thinks to himself "man I chummed up some nice one's today".

Questions;

Do shufflers have backing on their fly-reels?

Do you grow out of shuffling?

Do you ever revert back to shuffling if you ever grow out of it?

But hey I was snagged in outlet 3 by a shuffler.

[Brian K. Shaffer]

As an ex-shuffler - I was shown by someone else very early on in my developing year or two in fly fishing that I was making an impact on the population / growth on the scuds / sowbugs with each dredging of my foot. So, therefore, I quit doing it.

It makes perfectly logical sense too - if you dislodge an entire colony of scuds that takes approx. 60 days to reach a level of maturity for your personal gain ... to catch a trout only to release it seconds later ... something is just not right with that picture.

Now I am a happier fisherman for it.

Why do you think it is illegal on the San Juan River in NM ?

( by the way - I saw a guy doing it today.. with fish rising around like crazy! )

my .02 - Brian

[jscheetz]

Well, at least if shuffling was illegal it would as others have said, give you something to say to someone who is doing it. But I really think it is just the way MDC sees this fishery. It's fish in a barrel - they stock 'em people take - they stock some more. I really don't see much active enforcement of any laws down there - I just don't think the fish here as a resource is valued nearly as much as a wild trout in Montana for instance. I have NEVER seen anyone checking licenses or creels at taney. I know some say they are hiding in the bushes - but comon - if they wanted to actually crack down - on any given Saturday there are a hundred people within walking distance of the dam - should be pretty easy work if an agent was inclined to enforce the law.

JS