More Smallie Action In River

[Chief Grey Bear]

Mitch, what we were told is that the top end size of Missouri smallmouth bass has decreased due to the increase of runt spots.

Then it went to poachers. Then giggers. Nothing was mentioned about those that target nesting brownies.

I am not sure all the poachers and giggers combined could do the damage nest busters can.

This thread is getting to be a train wreck.

Agreed.

[jdmidwest]

Frog season is almost upon us again, you should start seeing a large number of smallies with gig marks on them again. Funny how it coincides with the blue heron migration in the spring.

[Mitch f]

My post says" "Briefly, our results were not specific to reservoirs or rivers, they were obtained from reviewing tagging studies and creel survey data nationwide (included lakes, reservoirs, and rivers). It doesn't exclude or include any state or river. And I don't understand how a statewide change from 12" to 15" and reducing the creel form 6 to 3 doesn't help everybody in the state, not just the eastern smallie streams.

[ozark trout fisher]

I don't fish for bedding bass anymore, but I can't honestly say that I have any scientific reasons for not doing it... I just don't get any pleasure anymore from taking spawning fish. They were taking my lure not so much because they were fooled by it or because they were hungry, but because they had to in order to protect their nests. It just doesn't seem right to me to exploit that protectionary instinct. I'm not judging anyone, because I have fished for bedding bass in the past, but I do think we should let them be while they are protecting their eggs, especially in an area like the lower Meramec where the smallmouth population is having a bit of difficulty holding ground against the spots. I can't honestly say that I don't fish for bass throughout the entire spawning season, but I do try to target the fish that aren't on their beds. I'm sure I do catch some spawners, but I don't mean to.

I will also point out that while the bass are bedding, the bluegill fishing is usually quite good. That's where I try to focus my attention when the bass are spawning.

[Al Agnew]

Yep, this thread got to be a real train wreck.

Problem is that the science isn't too specific to river smallmouth, especially Ozark river smallmouth. And...a lot of people wouldn't believe the science if it WAS specific and detailed.

But I don't like or agree with some of the premises posted here by some. Taking a smallmouth (temporarily) off the bed is an entirely different thing that gigging one, poaching one, or simply legally keeping one. Taking one off the bed for a few minutes may result in some eggs being eaten. It usually doesn't remove an adult fish from the population. Killing a big adult fish, as is the case with gigging one or keeping it for the frying pan, removes a fish that has already reached the kind of large size that those of us who are looking to improve fisheries for big fish are looking for. There are many orders of magnitude fewer 18 inch plus smallies swimming in Ozark streams than there are smallie eggs and fry this time of year. So it's comparing apples to oranges. IF, and that's a big "if", there was enough harassment of bedding fish that it was noticeably affecting the population of smallies overall, then that would be a problem comparable to having a liberal limit on smallies. But it would be a matter of increasing NUMBERS of smallmouth, not size.

The spotted bass situation on the Meramec has remained stable for a number of years as to how far up the Meramec spotted bass have been a problem. There appears to be something in the Meramec habitat that is stopping the spots from taking over above a certain point. So taking bedding fish off the beds temporarily on the Meramec probably isn't having much effect on the spotted bass/smallmouth dynamics. But the point is well taken for the Bourbeuse and Big River, where basically the whole rivers are in continuing danger of more and more spotted bass. Anything that results in more smallmouth being hatched and surviving to adulthood on those streams is a good thing.

Gig scars--wrong. We ONLY see fresh gig scars during gigging season. I do NOT EVER see fresh wounds that appear to be gig scars on smallmouth during the spring and summer. The heron theory is flat out wrong. Sorry to be so vehement about this, but it ticks me off.

I know we all are human, and humans tend to rationalize things to fit their own wants and beliefs. Some here believe that bed fishing is bad, and cite what appears to be "common sense" to justify their beliefs--taking a guarding bass off the bed temporarily can't help but result in some eggs or fry being eaten, therefore it reduces the numbers of fry that survive, therefore it reduces the numbers of potential adult smallmouth. Those who see nothing wrong with fishing for bedding fish justify it by citing the limited science that basically says that there are so many fry produced in a decent spawning year that there are far more than enough of them to insure the continuing population of adult fish, no matter how many are eaten.

Personally I don't specifically target bedding smallies, but I'm not too concerned about accidentally catching a few. Nor am I very concerned that Zipstick is single-handedly wiping out the smallie population in the Meramec and Gasconade by doing so. But like I said before, if there were a dozen boats pounding those same "bedrooms" every day, it could certainly become a serious problem. Which, by the way, seems to be the case on rivers like the Susquehanna, where a bunch of guides and other anglers, including some that ordinarily guide on other waters, have found the bedding concentrations and are exploiting them intensively. Even in that case, however, there are a lot of environmental problems that seem to be having a much greater effect on the smallmouth population, which is in very serious decline on those eastern streams. At least our smallmouth are not suffering from endocrine disruption making them have both male and female organs due to all the pharmaceuticals getting into the water through treated sewage and factory farm run-off.

There are some good points made above, though. Chief always points out that if the smallmouth fishing is so bad that we need better regulations, how can Zipstick be catching so many big fish? Or something to that effect...

Thing is that in any given 10 mile stretch of the rivers Nick fishes, there are only about 5 specific wintertime and spawning time spots where those fish are concentrated. Find those spots and you catch fish if you know what you are doing. During the rest of the year, all those fish are scattered throughout that ten mile stretch, and you might find one or two of them by floating the whole ten miles if you are lucky. The wintertime and spawning time concentrations give you a false sense of how many big fish there actually are, compared to good waters in other parts of the country. And those concentrations also undeniably make the big ones more vulnerable, both to bad apple giggers and poachers, and to legal anglers.

[ColdWaterFshr]

Zip caught 60 over 17 inches this past winter, all I presume from the same 5 areas? Sounds like he has some pet fish! Got names for 'em?

[Outside Bend]

Godwin's Law is a theory that, as internet discussions lengthen, the probability of a comparison being made to the Nazis increasingly approaches one.

I'd like to propose an adendum, the OA Principle. Basically, as a thread regarding anything smallmouth on this forum lengthens, the probability of the content veering from the initial subject to windy discussions of ethics, length limits, statewide management, Neosho Smallmouth, and howling and moaning about how someone or another dislikes one user group or another (bait fishers, fly fishers, jetboaters, giggers, folks from this or that side of the state, take your pick...)

Seriously. You guys can't have a cogent, civil discussion for more than ten posts, and then gnash your teeth because MDC doesn't seem to listen to you? Any thoughts on why that may be? If I worked for the state and had you guys at a public meeting or, worse yet, in my office, I'd be dodging this trainwreck too. No wonder most biologists would rather take a short walk off a high cliff than deal with the public. In short...grow up.

Yeah, I think fishing bedded fish is lame, but frankly I just don't care enough to get all worked up about it. If I had to rationalize it- there's all sorts of species we target when they're vulnerable, whether they be deer, turkeys, crappie, white bass, walleye, or myriad others. If it was systemic I'd be concerned, but I seriously doubt folks targeting spawning fish is a major limiting factor for growth and production of smallmouth in most large Ozark streams.

And if you think a guy going out and catching fish off their spawning beds is anywhere comparable to high water events or invasive species in terms of their capacity to effect spawning, you're delusional.

[ozark trout fisher]

Godwin's Law is a theory that, as internet discussions lengthen, the probability of a comparison being made to the Nazis increasingly approaches one.

I'd like to propose an adendum, the OA Principle. Basically, as a thread regarding anything smallmouth on this forum lengthens, the probability of the content veering from the initial subject to windy discussions of ethics, length limits, statewide management, Neosho Smallmouth, and howling and moaning

I agree that this thread is a bit of a train wreck, but what else do you expect to happen to a thread about targeting spawning bass on a forum with a lot of conservation minded fisherman?

It's an ethical issue, so I don't think there is anything wrong with people discussing that.

[jdmidwest]

I have seen fish with holes in them in May and June in a few of the local streams. There are usually a few frogs with legs missing laying in the holes also. Of course, it is before the official start of frog season, so I have no doubt that a frog poacher may attempt to gig a game fish also. Of course, I do scare off a heron from time to time, do they only eat the frog legs and spit the rest out?

We can only assume based on observations....

[Paola Cat]

I have seen fish with holes in them in May and June in a few of the local streams. There are usually a few frogs with legs missing laying in the holes also. Of course, it is before the official start of frog season, so I have no doubt that a frog poacher may attempt to gig a game fish also. Of course, I do scare off a heron from time to time, do they only eat the frog legs and spit the rest out?

We can only assume based on observations....

I think Herons also eat rattlesnakes .... and they both taste like chicken .