Water Moccasins / Copperhead Snakes

[jdmidwest]

Ah yes. A big black snake. Possibly a cottonmouth, possibly something different. It's got a cottonmouth tag on it on the Internet so must be true?

To reiterate, there are a few positive moc ID's but you got to be up pretty close and personal for most all of them unless you are pretty strong on herp ID's. Not trying to stir up stuff or be cantankerous but there is a lot of mis-information about snakes in general.

L

White along the lower cheek, dull, faint markings, boxy head, thick body throughout. Pretty good signs from a distance. Black Rat snake, head about same size as neck, symmetrical tapered body, usually glossy scales, faint markings on close inspection, white underneath.

When in doubt, stay away from it. Duhh!

[Ham]

If you leave the snakes you see alone AND watch where you put your hands and feet, you won't have any problems with snakes.

There is way to much unreasonable fear of snakes and follish illegal killing of snakes as well.

[Coldspring]

Would anyone be interested in adopting this guy's PET COBRA? I guess it needs a new home full of love.

http://www.ky3.com/news/local/Texas-County-man-nearly-dies-from-snake-bite-97994384.html

[Billfo]

Yes, below (south) of Baxter, Big Indian is the one that goes southwest, little indian goes southeast. Doing some work on a place on Big Indian. Yard has been neglected. A couple of years worth of fallen branches, 2 years of fallen leaves and a few rock piles. I will be clearing all that stuff. Sounds like perfect snake habitat ! I hope I wont be in the hospital very long- ive got things to do ! Thank you all for the information.. Guess some protective clothing is in order.. I will chcck in to "hose-end" sprays maybe I can deter them from bedding down on the property.

Question -

When referring to Big Indian and Little Indian Creek, is that usually meant to be that area south of Baxter?

We have a place on the lake at the complete northend of Indian Point (about 4 miles north of Indian Point between Branson West and Silver Dollar City) that we call Indian Creek with an adjoining creek to the south called Little Indian. What is the relationship of these creeks?

[skeeter]

This topic, was up and had lots of interest, about 3 weeks ago.. Don't know which branch of the Indian Creek, it is but the one that runs thru DogWood Canyon had a a person bitten by a Cotton Mouth a few weeks ago. I have seen as many snakes this year, as I believe I have in all my 50+ years. Had 3 Copperheads lying on my asphalt driveway last week one morning. Seems the flood of two years ago was good for more than just the fish.

The Timber Rattler deal sounds realy Scary.

The Spring(s) in Dogwood are the headwaters of the Baxter area Little Indian arm. Some times the copperheads are so thick back there you can smell them. They stink and remind me of something like hot metal or metal coming out of an acid bath. Very unpleasant and distinct odor.

I'm pretty sure they are talking about the creeks near Baxter. Little Indian runs through Dogwood Canyon before entering the lake. The Carroll Electric guys that cut those swaths through the forest see alot of snakes and told me that thge Little Indian / Dogwood Canyon area has more and bigger Copperheads then anywhere they've worked. We got into the discussion after they helped me kill a really large Copperhead on the road next to my house. We have also seen more Pygmy Rattlesnakes in the last few years then we used to. When they rattle, it sound like a bee buzzing. We've had 2 Timber Rattlers killed within a few hundred feet of my place last year. None so far this year.

We had to "remove" a large Cottonmouth doing his courting dance at the dock this spring. We have many water snakes and do not mess with them unless we have swimmers in the water. The big Cottonmouth was floating in a coil. He was floating very high, as somebody said, like he was made of styrofoam. Then, he would flip upside-down, still coiled, and float that way for awhile. Very neat to see, but.....a very dangerous snake, so he "went away".

We heard the same thing from the Carroll Electric crews. Must have been the same crew that cleared the Baxter area. Interesting that you live near Cow Creek and are seeing Timber Rattlers, that proves they are in the Lampe area and my understanding is they don't always rattle to warn you. We always watch our step after dark when the evenings begin cooling off since cold blooded creatures like to crawl out on paved roads and soak up the heat from the day.

[Wayne SW/MO]

You want to be careful that you don't confuse King snakes and Copperheads, King snakes eat copperheads. They are very similar in color and appearance.

[SKMO]

Of course I'll be the odd man out and ask why? Why worry about a native animal (or two) that hasn't killed healthy adult who wasn't screwing with them intentionally in years?

If you don't mess with them, they won't mess with you.

Driving to put your boat in at the ramp is the most dangerous thing you do every fishing trip, not anything to do with snakes.

I agree 100% with this reasoning. I have not killed a non-poisonous snake for 30+ years. I have killed 3 copperheads in our backyard over the last 13 years, mainly because we have 3 smallish dogs and wife and kids and I all walk around barefoot at night at times. I have seen and "passed" on dozens and dozens of copperheads in the woods, including one that crawled over my leg as I sat calling a turkey. Was already shaking due to the turkey and C-head did not have much to add adrenaline-wise, so snake lived and turkey died about 10 minutes later.

I was bit by a c-head in 1984, never even went to a Dr. with the bite because by the time I got out of the woods and made it into town over 2 hours had passed and it seemed to me the worst was over and I did not have insurance. Ended up just like a really bad red wasp sting. (Also at the time had just had a lab bit right on the breastbone and paid around $150 for a vet to give him "treatment" which was nothing more than an antibiotic shot).

I also very recently (2 weeks ago) dispatched a cottonmouth near the docks in our neighborhood in Shell Knob. This was in an area a lot of people swim, including a lot of kids and people I am responsible for. We have swam there for years and see water snakes almost every time down there, but this was the first C-mouth so that is how uncommon they are, in my opinion. I did not feel bad about sending it to meet it's maker. Actually my son ran up to my truck and got the 1911 and popped him in two pieces with a 200gr Cor-Bon. Sank like a rock and I did not feel bad about seeing both pieces of him spiral down.

My boss and I both stepped numerous times within 15" of a large rattlesnake just yesterday. He got a pic and he is emailing it to me, hopefully it has a date/time stamp, in any case we left it where we found it, alive.

[Sam]

I've never met a poisonous snake I didn't kill if I could. We lived out west for years and I killed hundreds of rattlesnakes, but around here it's mostly copperheads and cottonmouths. If I see 'em, they're dead.

Harmless snakes are another matter, I leave those alone. I see lots of garter snakes and a few other harmless species on our place, and there's a big black snake that lives around our patio that I'm almost friendly with. When I think about the pain and trauma poisonous snakes can cause people, especially kids, and how they can kill pets - I just don't see any use in them. If poisonous snakes get killed off, I'm sure non-poisonous snakes increase in numbers to fill that "niche" in an area's ecosystem to control rodents and so forth. That's fine with me, and I'll do my best to help that happen.

[Kayser]

1 & 3, definitely not poisonous. While #2 looks very similar to #1, the way it's coiled doesn't exactly say water snake to me, and I think you can just barely see the pit in front of it's eye, making it a cottonmouth. Could just be my eyes, though...

I try not to kill any snake if I can avoid it, even the watersnakes that try to crawl up my leg when I'm fishing the Current. For copperheads, I just leave them and watch my step- it's his woods, after all, I'm the trespasser. As far as cottonmouths, I like to either stay in a boat, in cold water, or on a dock. That and there aren't very many moc's where I go.

Rob

[Sam]

Phil may want to move this thread somewhere out of the Tablerock section, but since we're having fun talking about snakes I'll tell why I kill all poisonous snakes on sight.

I didn't used to be that way. I figured a snakebite would be like a big wasp sting - it'd hurt, swell up, turn red, and you'd either get over it or not. I found out different.

I'm from around here originally, but I did a whole career and retired from a Sheriff's department in Southern California. We had a big murder investigation going once - we knew who did it but we couldn't find the bodies. Information made us think that two people were buried in an approximate area of semi-desert, so we called in all extra personnel, the reserves, the mounted posse, search-and-rescue, and a helicopter and did a two-day intensive weekend search of that area. We had about 400 people walk the area slow in a line, 5 yards apart, looking for disturbed ground, clothes, or any clues.

One of our reserve deputies was a snake enthusiast and he kept a bunch of snakes at home, including poisonous ones (nuts, in my opinion). As our search line advanced, some of the deputies called out that there was a BIG rattlesnake and this guy went running over there. A few minutes later he came back down the line carrying a big snake, holding it behind the head and it was rattling like crazy, thrashing around, and trying to get away from him (like I said, he was nuts). That thing was about 5 1/2 feet long and as big around as your arm. As a supervisor I asked him what the heck he thought he was doing, and Deputy Dumbass was all happy - he said it was a rare "Mojave Green" and he was going to the kitchen trailer to put it in a plastic bucket to take it home!

Well, I didn't want him to turn it loose and he was holding it so I couldn't shoot it. I probably should'a just shot HIM and saved the workman's comp claim. Anyway, I let him do it, and I heard plenty about that from MY boss later!

A couple minutes after he left, guys over that way started hollering that he'd got bit and then I heard a shot. I ran down there and sure enough the snake had twisted away from the snake-collecting deputy and bit him on the hand. Then another deputy killed the snake with a shotgun. The guy's hand was red and swollen like you'd expect, with a couple of fang marks, and he was hurting bad. We got him on the helicopter and found out by radio where was the best place to take him for a snakebite (Loma Linda hospital). As the helicopter was taking off, another reserve deputy who was a professional photographer asked if he could go along to photograph the whole deal, and I said OK.

The guy lived through it but he nearly died and he was in the hospital for a month. The photographer made a project out of it and he made us a slide show for training purposes. He took identical close-up pictures of that hand, starting while they were in the helicopter and the emergency room, and then returning to the hospital for a picture every day for a month. I'm telling ya, that was no wasp sting - it was the awfullest thing you ever saw.

In less than a week, the flesh of that hand started to rot and drop off. It looked worst at about 3 weeks - a skeleton hand with bones and tendons bare, and green and black areas of meat falling away from the bones. You could see right through the hand between the bones. After numerous surgeries and grafts and about a year, the guy was left with kind of a claw that he couldn't move instead of a hand. He had to leave the Sheriff's dept., of course, and in real life he'd operated a road grader and he couldn't do that anymore either.

I've read that snakes inject venom intentionally, and this was a big snake that he had really upset. It gave him the full load, and he shouldn't have been fooling with it anyway. I know Missouri copperheads and cottonmouths aren't that bad, though a big rattler might be. But that's why I always kill poisonous snakes on sight, because I think about a person, and maybe a kid, going through something like that. We just don't need those things around, in my opinion.