Private Put In Fees On Private Property.

[ozark trout fisher]

Dude, your understanding of economics are a little goofy. The huge crowds aren't there so that a business (canoe rental) can make money. Its the other way around.

My understanding of economics is probably about average, but my understand of the motivation of the average float-tripper is pretty good. I know that the majority of the party floaters that go down the river wouldn't bother if they had to arrange the shuttle and come up with a boat themselves. Is it just a coincidence that rivers with no canoe rentals are far less crowded than say, the Current River? To use an example, the Big Piney, in just about every way I can wrap my head around, is much the same as the upper Current. There both spring-fed, pretty streams that have great scenery, good fishing, and a nice perenial flow. But one (the upper Current) is littered with canoe rentals, and isn't even worth fishing or floating in the summer time, unless your goal is to see as many fat,drunk people in bikinis as possible. You don't see much wildlife either, because the hundreds of people that already floated by have scared them. The other, the Big Piney, just has a couple small-time outfitters. I floated it once this summer for two days and only saw 7 or 8 other people, and plenty of wildlife. Canoe rentals make a difference, make not mistake about it.

I'm done ranting about it because there isn't a darn thing I can do about it. But I just hate seeing our rivers commercialized in a way that is so detrimental to nature and those who want to experience it in a somewhat natural way. I don't have a problem with sharing the river, but I don't like it when people put hundreds of party floaters on one stretch of stream just to make some dough.

[ozark trout fisher]

My understanding of economics is probably about average, but my understand of the motivation of the average float-tripper is pretty good. I know that the majority of the party floaters that go down the river wouldn't bother if they had to arrange the shuttle and come up with a boat themselves. Is it just a coincidence that rivers with no canoe rentals are far less crowded than say, the Current River? To use an example, the Big Piney, in just about every way I can wrap my head around, is much the same as the upper Current. There both spring-fed, pretty streams that have great scenery, good fishing, and a nice perenial flow. But one (the upper Current) is littered with canoe rentals, and isn't even worth fishing or floating in the summer time, unless your goal is to see as many fat,drunk people in bikinis as possible. You don't see much wildlife either, because the hundreds of people that already floated by have scared them. The other, the Big Piney, just has a couple small-time outfitters. I floated it once this summer for two days and only saw 7 or 8 other people, and plenty of wildlife. Canoe rentals make a difference, make not mistake about it.

I'm done ranting about it because there isn't a darn thing I can do about it. But I just hate seeing our rivers commercialized in a way that is so detrimental to nature and those who want to experience it in a somewhat natural way. I don't have a problem with sharing the river, but I don't like it when people put hundreds of party floaters on one stretch of stream just to make some dough.

You know, I was re-reading this post, and I thought to myself "holy crap, I sound like a mean-spirited grumpy old man."

So I apologize. That post was over the top, and I can see that within about five minutes of writing it. I believe what I believe, but there's no reason for a post to be as negative and accusatory as this one a topic like this.

[gotmuddy]

I understand where your coming from, but I can't knock someone from trying to make a living either. The real problem is party floaters who do not respect the river. I have been a party floater numerous times on the north fork river and I have never left any trash.

[awhuber]

My understanding of economics is probably about average, but my understand of the motivation of the average float-tripper is pretty good. I know that the majority of the party floaters that go down the river wouldn't bother if they had to arrange the shuttle and come up with a boat themselves. Is it just a coincidence that rivers with no canoe rentals are far less crowded than say, the Current River? To use an example, the Big Piney, in just about every way I can wrap my head around, is much the same as the upper Current. There both spring-fed, pretty streams that have great scenery, good fishing, and a nice perenial flow. But one (the upper Current) is littered with canoe rentals, and isn't even worth fishing or floating in the summer time, unless your goal is to see as many fat,drunk people in bikinis as possible. You don't see much wildlife either, because the hundreds of people that already floated by have scared them. The other, the Big Piney, just has a couple small-time outfitters. I floated it once this summer for two days and only saw 7 or 8 other people, and plenty of wildlife. Canoe rentals make a difference, make not mistake about it.

I'm done ranting about it because there isn't a darn thing I can do about it. But I just hate seeing our rivers commercialized in a way that is so detrimental to nature and those who want to experience it in a somewhat natural way. I don't have a problem with sharing the river, but I don't like it when people put hundreds of party floaters on one stretch of stream just to make some dough.

Hmm ...A highly federal regulated river , Current Vs a non regulated river, Big Piney.....

[eric1978]

You know, I was re-reading this post, and I thought to myself "holy crap, I sound like a mean-spirited grumpy old man."

So I apologize. That post was over the top, and I can see that within about five minutes of writing it. I believe what I believe, but there's no reason for a post to be as negative and accusatory as this one a topic like this.

I didn't find it mean-spirited, I just thought you were being honest. Sometimes the truth hurts, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be told. The stream over-population problem will only get worse with each passing year, and there's nothing that can be done about it, so I won't bother whining about this one.

I think floaters should have to pass an IQ test before they're rented a canoe.

[ColdWaterFshr]

Sorry if I got little over the top calling your grasp of economics as goofy, Oz Trout Fisher. I understand your point about the outfitters, but they are only there and survive and do a good business so long as there is a demand for their services. If 2 or 3 large outfitters were to open next summer on the Big Piney for example . . . their longterm success, simply by merely being open for business, would by no means be assured. Not as easy a business as it would seem. The BP will never have the mass appeal of the Current River for a number of reasons. The lack of outfitters is not chief among them.

Similarly, if 2 or 3 outfitters on the Current River were to just arbitrarily quit the business and sell their property tomorrow, you could almost bet odds that someone would rush to fill that vacuum of their absence and business would resume next summer almost as if no lapse of service had occured.

The Huzzah and Courtois are a bit closer to St. Louis than either the BP or Current, are scenic little gems in their own right, and will always be popular float destinations for these reasons and not just because an outfitter just randomly fell from the sky and set up shop there. By that logic, the Bourbeuse is a gold mine just waiting for an outfitter to set up and reap the rewards, its even CLOSER to St. Louis. Maybe someday it will, but I doubt it.

But anyway, getting off topic about the # of canoes on our states favorite rivers in early-mid summer is another can of worms all in and of itself, but just like the navigable issue, it has nothing to do with ACCESS to a stream via someones private property and whatever they want to charge to park or put in a boat.

[Al Agnew]

Some rivers are crowded because of their characteristics, others because of their proximity to major population centers. Huzzah and Courtois have both "problems". Close to St. Louis, and nice, clear, fast water...and it's even the right temperature for playing in the water any time the weather is warm. Current River is popular partly because it's well-named...the current in it moves along with very little dead water, so the party floaters don't have to work to get down it.

The Big Piney is about as far from the major population centers as it can be. And, it does have more slow water than the Current. The Niangua, which is somewhat similar to the Big Piney, is the closest true Ozark river to KC, so it's much more popular.

Heck, I'd love to have the rivers all to myself. I'd love it if every access was difficult enough that the lazy slobs who only want to party avoids them, and there were no canoe rentals...as long as I could still find somebody to shuttle me. I'd also love to win the lottery. Then I could hire my own private shuttle person to drive me to the river and pick me up. Canoe rentals are simply free enterprise at work. If the demand wasn't there, they wouldn't be there.

[Trav]

I pay 30 dollars a year to launch at Army Corp ramps......what is the difference?

[Chief Grey Bear]

$30???? You're getting ripped. My dad pays $15.

[KCRIVERRAT]

Some rivers are crowded because of their characteristics, others because of their proximity to major population centers. Huzzah and Courtois have both "problems". Close to St. Louis, and nice, clear, fast water...and it's even the right temperature for playing in the water any time the weather is warm. Current River is popular partly because it's well-named...the current in it moves along with very little dead water, so the party floaters don't have to work to get down it.

The Big Piney is about as far from the major population centers as it can be. And, it does have more slow water than the Current. The Niangua, which is somewhat similar to the Big Piney, is the closest true Ozark river to KC, so it's much more popular.

Heck, I'd love to have the rivers all to myself. I'd love it if every access was difficult enough that the lazy slobs who only want to party avoids them, and there were no canoe rentals...as long as I could still find somebody to shuttle me. I'd also love to win the lottery. Then I could hire my own private shuttle person to drive me to the river and pick me up. Canoe rentals are simply free enterprise at work. If the demand wasn't there, they wouldn't be there.

Al, I believe the Little Niangua to be the "truest" thing to an Ozark river closest to KC than the Big Niangua. Not by far albeit...

Have you floated it?

And also... the Pomme De Terre, Sac, and (whoops! Am I violating any principles here?) OK... named a few Ozark "fringe" streams. Maybe the Little Niangua is that also, but I don't believe that.

There are plenty of streams in the western part of the state as most of you know that feed the big reservoirs. Do some research and maybe you'll find a brand new, unused, gem of a spot.

KC