White Ribbon Conservation Issue

[Chief Grey Bear]

I don't pretend to know as much as some of you do about the various trout waters, so maybe somebody else has way different ideas. But seems to me that instead of the whole blue-red-white ribbon concept, which lumps streams of very different characteristics together, it would be better to lump them according to their characteristics.

It has always been my thought that the difference in the Blue, Red and White was to appease the different skill levels of the fishermen. Not so much the characteristics of the stream. I would venture to say that is the basis for the development of the different managment levels. I have nothing to base that on, it is just the way I viewed it.

[Greg]

I got the score at

Chief - 7, plus or minus a couple, mostly minus because his evidence is weak and he seems a bit inflexible.

Outside Bend - 14, but could knock off a few if he becomes too verbose.

Ozark Trout Fisher - 3 ( could be 9 if he had changed his avatar)

Al Agnew - a spotless 100, the man has records and spreadsheets people, i'm not crappin you.

DrewMc - 3 (could be 5 but he is holding a goggleye)

Anyone else keeping score?

That is funny stuff!!

Anyone on their high school debate team? If not you should have been.

Greg

[Greg]

More and more, I'm thinking that in trout as well as bass, we may be going about this all wrong. We should be cropping off reasonable numbers of the smaller fish that are still big enough for a few of them to provide a meal, while protecting those that are approaching real trophies. I'm more and more a fan of slot limits not only for bass but for trout. Out here where I am in Montana, I never paid any attention to what the limits were on trout on the Yellowstone and other rivers, because I didn't intend to keep any of them anyway. But I got curious the other day and found out that the limit on the Yellowstone is 4 rainbow and/or brown trout per day and in possession, but only one of them can be over 18 inches.

Interesting idea. The slot limit sure has worked on upper Taneycomo. You wonder how it would work on some of the white ribbon streams? I'm not advocating this but it is interesting to think about.

Greg

[Gavin]

I asked the biologist about how they came up with the Red, White & Blue designations when they proposed them several years ago. The main driver for Blue, Red, & White designation was habitat....but other factors were considered as well. Geography, local input, nearby trout fisheries, etc..

Streams were wild reproduction occurs & most of the best habitat is under blue ribbon regs now. But there is some great habitat in the Reds & Whites too. Current from Cedar to Akers or Pulltite might make a great blue, red, or white ribbon area...but..lots of hurdles to jump through with the Naional Park Service. The Meramec has good habitat from the Park down to Suicide Hill....and poor habitat below....but its a popular float stream...and splitting it into blue & red would make it hard to regulate...therefore red...The Niangua...has summer time temperature & other issues...Not sure about issues at Hickory or Capps...but I've never visited, and probably never will.

It would be wonderful to have enough wild trout to allow a slot limit in this State....not likely though...We are truly dependant on the stocking truck in all but a select few locations....

I'd consider the North Fork of the White to be the most productive wild trout fishery in this state, and youd be surprised at how low the fish counts are....Maybe 400-500 rainbows per mile in the Blue Ribbon area....Sometimes its been allot less. When the 11pt was under wild trout management...the counts were often less than 200 rainbows per mile and quite a few of those were feral fish that swam up from the stocked waters below...Not enough trout water to go around in this state that is for sure, but what we have is pretty good and it appeals to a wide variety of anglers. Cheers.

[ColdWaterFshr]

It has always been my thought that the difference in the Blue, Red and White was to appease the different skill levels of the fishermen. Not so much the characteristics of the stream. I would venture to say that is the basis for the development of the different managment levels. I have nothing to base that on, it is just the way I viewed it.

No, skill level has nothing to do with it. Appeasement to types of anglers, yeah, I guess so. I read a white paper on what MDC was planning to do just before they made the changes. The main idea of it really is to give something for everyone within reason of what the habitat of each area is capable of supporting. Obviously, a self-sustaining trout stream like Crane for instance, isn't going to do well with fishermen coming out of there with 5 fish stringers all the time, so it has Blue Ribbon regs. But to say that a powerbait fisherman couldn't do well there -- thats not true at all and would be missing the point. Its also not really most folks idea of "trophy" water, but thats subjective isn't it?

Sections of the Niangua and lower Little Piney warm up considerably in the summer, so it has the White Ribbon regulations for put and take. The Red Ribbon areas are somewhere in between. Its all very much based on habitat.

I like the regulations the way they are. Color coding it also keeps it real simple for the average Missourah idjit. The slot works on Taney, but it is so much different than any of the other trout areas.

[ness]

I asked the biologist about how they came up with the Red, White & Blue designations when they proposed them several years ago. The main driver for Blue, Red, & White designation was habitat....but other factors were considered as well. Geography, local input, nearby trout fisheries, etc..

Streams were wild reproduction occurs & most of the best habitat is under blue ribbon regs now. But there is some great habitat in the Reds & Whites too. Current from Cedar to Akers or Pulltite might make a great blue, red, or white ribbon area...but..lots of hurdles to jump through with the Naional Park Service. The Meramec has good habitat from the Park down to Suicide Hill....and poor habitat below....but its a popular float stream...and splitting it into blue & red would make it hard to regulate...therefore red...The Niangua...has summer time temperature & other issues...Not sure about issues at Hickory or Capps...but I've never visited, and probably never will.

It would be wonderful to have enough wild trout to allow a slot limit in this State....not likely though...We are truly dependant on the stocking truck in all but a select few locations....

I'd consider the North Fork of the White to be the most productive wild trout fishery in this state, and youd be surprised at how low the fish counts are....Maybe 400-500 rainbows per mile in the Blue Ribbon area....Sometimes its been allot less. When the 11pt was under wild trout management...the counts were often less than 200 rainbows per mile and quite a few of those were feral fish that swam up from the stocked waters below...Not enough trout water to go around in this state that is for sure, but what we have is pretty good and it appeals to a wide variety of anglers. Cheers.

Good points there, Gavin. It was always about habitat, and the ability of trout to reproduce given the habitat. The presumption always was that there was value in the self-sustaining populations of rainbows. Anyone want to argue against protecting Crane? Good luck convincing anybody that Crane or some of the other special places ought to go wild, or the money should be spent elsewhere. That's just reality right there. Did trout crowd out some natives? Who cares -- there's plenty of room for the natives and only a handful of places like Crane for the rainbows. Gotta keep those finicky trout fishermen happy -- they pay a big portion of the freight on all this.

I'm lost in the whole spotted bass part of this discussion. It's pretty evident to me what's happening, and there haven't been any solid arguments that make me feel like it's ok to just let it go that way. But I'm gonna stay out of all that.

Me, I'm gonna lobby to keep my beloved wild trout happy, well-fed and spawning. And, part of that is keeping the Blue Ribbon stretch length limits high, creel limits low, tackle restricted to low-mortality methods (like flies). If the trade off for all that is low fishing pressure and a lot of forum bitching, I'll take it.

[drew03cmc]

I've got OB at 17 -- he really picked up some momentum with the new avatar. Could have been better if it hadn't been only a head shot. Pretty well thought out arguments; made me go to the dictionary twice. Playing good defense.

I docked Chief a couple for the last post -- too many metaphors, and poor usage. Claiming to try to stop beating a dead horse a couple posts ago, in a new post, well you just can't do that. And the paddle thing? Since when do you beat dead horses with paddles? 5

I've got OTF and Andy at 10 each. But I weigh passion and good manners more heavily.

I think I am going to cry...I got a compliment of sorts.

[Chief Grey Bear]

No, skill level has nothing to do with it. Appeasement to types of anglers, yeah, I guess so. I read a white paper on what MDC was planning to do just before they made the changes. The main idea of it really is to give something for everyone within reason of what the habitat of each area is capable of supporting. Obviously, a self-sustaining trout stream like Crane for instance, isn't going to do well with fishermen coming out of there with 5 fish stringers all the time, so it has Blue Ribbon regs. But to say that a powerbait fisherman couldn't do well there -- thats not true at all and would be missing the point. Its also not really most folks idea of "trophy" water, but thats subjective isn't it?

Sections of the Niangua and lower Little Piney warm up considerably in the summer, so it has the White Ribbon regulations for put and take. The Red Ribbon areas are somewhere in between. Its all very much based on habitat.

I like the regulations the way they are. Color coding it also keeps it real simple for the average Missourah idjit. The slot works on Taney, but it is so much different than any of the other trout areas.

You are right. And I agree. I got to thinking about it later after I posted and you are right, habitat had a lot to do with it. It does offer different skill levels per sa.

But I would like to add I don't see or hear of a lot of die hard fly fisherman hitting the white ribbon sections, in fact some on here talk like those waters are beneath them. Nor do I see a lot of baiters hitting the Blue Ribbon to see what it is all about. That certainly has no scientific basis to it, just an observation.

I do believe that trout can maintain in about any Ozark stream. And I beleive that they could sustain in most smaller Ozark streams. Uless we have mild winters, there shouldn't be much of a problem with getting the water temps to the optimal 57* for rainbows to have a successful spawn. I think browns need 53* for a successful spawn if I remember correctly.

[eric1978]

But I would like to add I don't see or hear of a lot of die hard fly fisherman hitting the white ribbon sections, in fact some on here talk like those waters are beneath them.

No, not necessarily beneath them, it's just that the Blue Ribbons generally offer better fishing.

Nor do I see a lot of baiters hitting the Blue Ribbon to see what it is all about.

That's because it's illegal.

[troutfiend1985]

But I would like to add I don't see or hear of a lot of die hard fly fisherman hitting the white ribbon sections, in fact some on here talk like those waters are beneath them. Nor do I see a lot of baiters hitting the Blue Ribbon to see what it is all about. That certainly has no scientific basis to it, just an observation.

I do believe that trout can maintain in about any Ozark stream. And I beleive that they could sustain in most smaller Ozark streams. Uless we have mild winters, there shouldn't be much of a problem with getting the water temps to the optimal 57* for rainbows to have a successful spawn. I think browns need 53* for a successful spawn if I remember correctly.

You have one here, only reason I don't go more is because of time constraints and blue ribbons offer better fishing(in large part b/c of their management IMO).