Shoal Creek Is Private Property?

[FishinCricket]

Did anyone say if the land Cricket trespassed on was Posted?

I wasnt tresspassing, I was standing on a gravel island in the center of the stream bed.. And yes, I do remember seeing purple paint on darn near every tree on this float... (even one that had fallen out into the river)

[Justin Spencer]

For public non-navigable streams, the center thread is also where the adjacent property boundaries lie. Fishing, wading and boating are allowed but the banks are private property as is the stream bottom.

Am I correct that this is still part of MDC's statement? If so how do you wade if the stream bottom is private property, and it seems to me as if MDC employees are not aware of the ruling in Elder or choose to ignore it. Has this case been brought up with any MDC employees and what was their response?

When MDC says it's a tricky subject it shows me they are ignoring a Supreme Court Ruling. I've asked them for answers many times and have never been given any kind of answer and never knew of this case before this thread.

[ollie]

Ok, I don't what happened to you guys other than what I have read. For one, the sherriff really is a nice guy and I know most of the deputys. That being said some of the deputies arn't very nice. There are a couple of them that are avid fly fisherman and belong to groups that promote fishing and they must not have been the ones there! Too bad you didn't get the names of the deputies. Like someone pointed out earlier, more than likely the landowner contributes to the sheriff fund for re-election. What stretch were you guys on? It's the good ole boys down here ya know. Doesn't make it any more right though.

[Al Agnew]

Am I correct that this is still part of MDC's statement? If so how do you wade if the stream bottom is private property, and it seems to me as if MDC employees are not aware of the ruling in Elder or choose to ignore it. Has this case been brought up with any MDC employees and what was their response?

When MDC says it's a tricky subject it shows me they are ignoring a Supreme Court Ruling. I've asked them for answers many times and have never been given any kind of answer and never knew of this case before this thread.

Justin, yes, the stream bed is private, BUT the Supreme Court case gave the public the right to walk on it (and on gravel bars) anyway. It's kinda like the sidewalk in front of somebody's house. They own the land under the sidewalk, but the public still has the right to walk on the sidewalk.

Fact is that MDC is NOT the right people to ask. They have little jurisdiction in cases of potential trespass, and they are NOT going to fight very hard for your rights because they don't consider it their job and they do not wish to set themselves against landowners any more than necessary. The people to talk to are the county officials, with the Supreme Court case and Chief's other stuff in hand. You DO have the law on your side, and this is an issue that is going to keep coming up, and we anglers had better get serious about standing up for our rights.

Having said that, maybe it's also time for anglers to band together and insist that MDC educate their agents about the law, so that the agents CAN give people a definitive answer (at least as definitive as the law is based upon Elder v Delcour).

[Smalliebigs]

Al, how did you know that Indian Creek was ruled a public-non-navigable??? Can we find out how all creeks are designated or was there a specific case involving the Indian????.That creek is rated my most likely to have gun pulled on you since it's happened to me twice there. Platin Creek is another creek you can get into some trouble in a hurry if you aren't careful.

[troutfiend1985]

Al, how did you know that Indian Creek was ruled a public-non-navigable??? Can we find out how all creeks are designated or was there a specific case involving the Indian????.That creek is rated my most likely to have gun pulled on you since it's happened to me twice there. Platin Creek is another creek you can get into some trouble in a hurry if you aren't careful.

I almost want to say that I saw that in one of chiefs posts. Anyways, this whole gun pulling thing is why I think we should start a petition this summer to get Elder v. Delcour passed either as a statute or into the states constitution, maybe then these landowners would start to get an idea of what is and isn't legal.

[ness]

Having said that, maybe it's also time for anglers to band together and insist that MDC educate their agents about the law, so that the agents CAN give people a definitive answer (at least as definitive as the law is based upon Elder v Delcour).

That right there is a good idea. So many times we hear the authorities defer to MDC - just like in this case. The reality is that actual jurisdiction is with law enforcement, but you'll never get every county sheriff and deputy seeing this the same way. But since CA are often involved in these cases, all of them being on the same page would be a good thing.

Anybody heard from Chief? Hopefully he's not in 'the Box'.

[Wayne SW/MO]

Ithink it's also time to let the county know they are playing with money. If we had some addresses, either mail or e-mail, we could let them know, by we I mean a whole lot of us, could let them know that if the county is unfriendly to fishermen, we'll take our dollars elsewhere.

It wouldn't help to threaten a petition to MDC for a sign warning people not launch at that access because of possible legal problems.

They probably mistakenly believe that Chief and a few friends are the only people aware of what happened. If they get a load of complaints they will have a choice, they can entertain this abnormal land owner or keep the outside money flowing.

[bigredbirdfan]

This is according to DNR's material.

What rights do I have to keep floaters (or fisherman or canoers) off my property (or lake

or pond or stream)?

Many water use questions involve private property rights. As a property owner, you have the

right to choose who may and may not come onto your property. Those who walk or drive onto

your property without your permission are trespassers. You may consider posting your land with

signs, or purple paint. This warns any potential trespassers to stay off. If the lake or pond is

entirely on your property, and not a part of a navigable stream system, you have the right to

keep trespassers off it as well. Contact your county sheriff to deal with trespassers. If your

stream is floatable, the canoer has a right to float past your property on the water, but not to

trespass on your land. If you own both sides of the stream and the bed of the stream, a

fisherman walking on your streambed may be trespassing on your land. Each situation has its

own conditions that may apply. Visit a law library or consult an attorney.

I was really bummed I couldn't join everyone on this float now it looks like I missed an opportunity to go to jail. I don't do well with situations like this I would have told this jerk to stick where the sun don't shine.

[bigredbirdfan]

In Mexico if you are a foreign landowner you can not deprive a Mexican citizen of his right to any public water. So literally if one knocks on your door and says I want to go through your house to the water you have to oblige his.

Our public waters have very little access in my opinion. And there is no debating it everyones water.