Expensive Rods...

[Al Agnew]

As most of you know, my raft flipped out here in Montana and I lost a bunch of stuff, including a Sage 6 weight fly rod. I've been putting off buying a replacement, mainly because every time I look at the Sage rods I'm shocked anew by the prices. I've never paid more than about $350 for a rod, even a fly rod, and to replace my model with a similar one would cost me more than that.

So last Saturday I toddled over to Dan Bailey's in Livingston because I'd seen a sign in their window advertising Ross rods on sale. I was not very familiar with Ross rods--knew about their reels--and it was interesting to see the prices on them. The cheapest grade was about $130 and the most expensive was in the $350 range. I picked up the least expensive 6 wt., held it and jiggled it, then picked up one of the more expensive ($600 range) Sages that they had on the rack. I couldn't tell much difference, either in weight or action. The sales guy, who seemed knowledgeable, wandered over and I asked him what everybody at Dan Bailey's thought about those Ross rods compared to, say, Sages. He said that if you blindfolded a person and had him cast both, he'd be hard pressed to tell the difference. In fact, he said, the difference between the cheapest and most expensive Ross was only in the components; the blanks were pretty much identical.

Upshot was that I bought the cheapest Ross. I figured it it turned out that I didn't particularly like it or felt the need to be pretentious and own an obviously expensive rod or just came into a lot more cash, I'd relegate it to a spare (since I sure seem to need spares frequently!) and get a better one later.

I went on a float yesterday and took along the new rod. It was a cloudy day and I thought streamers might be working, and that would be the main use for the 6 weight--casting streamers. I cast streamers a good part of the day with only one nice rainbow to show for it, but the rod performed beautifully.

And that got me thinking.

I really believe that fly rods in general are overpriced. I think that, ever since that notorious movie made flyfishing the high class thing to do, the prices of all flyfishing gear has shot through the roof, with rods being the best example. I know what the "best" components cost for a rod builder compared to "average" components, and it isn't all that much. I'm pretty sure that high end fly rod blanks don't cost all that much more to produce than cheaper ones. When you compare my new $130 rod to a $700 Sage or a $950 Winston, I'm pretty sure that the cost of the high end rod to the manufacturer isn't 5 to 9 times as much. I'm also pretty sure that it doesn't cost 5 to 9 times the labor, either.

So...is the rod 5 to 9 times better? I guess that's subjective. A fly rod should do a couple of things, in my opinion. It should cast a line effortlessly and should not tire you out in a day of fishing. The weight (in ounces, not line weight) of a rod can be pretty important. The balance might be important, although I don't really see all that much rocket science in balancing a fly rod, since nearly all the rod is in front of your casting hand, unlike a casting or spinning rod where you might have considerable butt behind your hand. Other than that, different people or different uses might have a bearing on the action of a rod. And the care with which it's assembled and the quality of the components will make a difference in the durability--although if you pay a huge amount of money for it, you're probably going to take good care of it, and taking good care of it is probably more important to how long it lasts you than how it was made in the first place.

I can see a handmade high end bamboo rod being worth the money. I just can't see the high end graphite rod being worth that 5-10 times more than the "decent" rod.

There is probably a point where you encounter diminishing returns. For instance, my first couple of fly rods were BPS specials that cost under $100, and I immediately ditched them when I cast my first $250 rod. You could really tell a difference, both in components and weight, and in casting qualities. So I have to say that a really cheap (can't believe we're called under $100 really cheap!) rod is probably a case of getting what you paid for compared to a $200 rod. But is a $400 rod all that much better than the $200 rod?

When it comes to casting and spinning rods, you're choosing from slightly different criteria. You want the lightness and ease of use. You want good quality materials. You may, depending upon your uses for the rod, want great sensitivity, something I'm not sure applies to fly rods. But I don't think a $400 Loomis is four times better than a $100 BPS rod, either. And in fact, the only so-called high end casting rods I own are three that I either found on sale for way off retail or were given to me by a rod rep. I like them, but I like the rest of the rods I use (all of which cost less than $100) as well or I wouldn't be using them. Yes, the high end rods are SOMEWHAT better, and the right one for you and the job you are doing is pure joy to use. But I think a lot of anglers pay for the name so they can brag about the high end rods they own, and you could slap the name on a $50 rod and they couldn't tell the difference in actual use.

To end these musings, I will admit to one consideration. In the course of my career, I have sometimes fished with "rich" clients and other "movers and shakers". I suppose that in those cases, I have an image to project, and part of the image is to use fairly high end gear. Maybe. I don't know how many of those people actually look at my rods to see what brand I'm using. Maybe I'll end up getting that Sage just to fish with the rich and famous...nah, my Simms waders oughta be enough, especially since they say "Simms" on them in big letters.

[OzarkFishman]

Honesty, my friend, is something that most people can't project.

That was one of the most honest posts I have seen in a long time.

We all have an image to hold no matter our position ... and sometimes

"richness" comes into play. But, usually the middle class equipment is

almost as good as the high end stuff.

I compare it to the food industry. The poor what quantity, the middle-

class want quality and the rich want presentation.

Without quality, there is horrible presentation but the same is not true

in reverse. Food can be very top-notch and have horrible presentation.

Many "seasoned" angler see $50 - $100 BPS rods as cheap, while other

"seasoned" anglers see those same rods as very useful.

Nice to know the same holds true with fly rods.

Thanks for another insightful post,

OzarkFishman

[Mitch f]

As most of you know, my raft flipped out here in Montana and I lost a bunch of stuff, including a Sage 6 weight fly rod. I've been putting off buying a replacement, mainly because every time I look at the Sage rods I'm shocked anew by the prices. I've never paid more than about $350 for a rod, even a fly rod, and to replace my model with a similar one would cost me more than that.

So last Saturday I toddled over to Dan Bailey's in Livingston because I'd seen a sign in their window advertising Ross rods on sale. I was not very familiar with Ross rods--knew about their reels--and it was interesting to see the prices on them. The cheapest grade was about $130 and the most expensive was in the $350 range. I picked up the least expensive 6 wt., held it and jiggled it, then picked up one of the more expensive ($600 range) Sages that they had on the rack. I couldn't tell much difference, either in weight or action. The sales guy, who seemed knowledgeable, wandered over and I asked him what everybody at Dan Bailey's thought about those Ross rods compared to, say, Sages. He said that if you blindfolded a person and had him cast both, he'd be hard pressed to tell the difference. In fact, he said, the difference between the cheapest and most expensive Ross was only in the components; the blanks were pretty much identical.

Upshot was that I bought the cheapest Ross. I figured it it turned out that I didn't particularly like it or felt the need to be pretentious and own an obviously expensive rod or just came into a lot more cash, I'd relegate it to a spare (since I sure seem to need spares frequently!) and get a better one later.

I went on a float yesterday and took along the new rod. It was a cloudy day and I thought streamers might be working, and that would be the main use for the 6 weight--casting streamers. I cast streamers a good part of the day with only one nice rainbow to show for it, but the rod performed beautifully.

And that got me thinking.

I really believe that fly rods in general are overpriced. I think that, ever since that notorious movie made flyfishing the high class thing to do, the prices of all flyfishing gear has shot through the roof, with rods being the best example. I know what the "best" components cost for a rod builder compared to "average" components, and it isn't all that much. I'm pretty sure that high end fly rod blanks don't cost all that much more to produce than cheaper ones. When you compare my new $130 rod to a $700 Sage or a $950 Winston, I'm pretty sure that the cost of the high end rod to the manufacturer isn't 5 to 9 times as much. I'm also pretty sure that it doesn't cost 5 to 9 times the labor, either.

So...is the rod 5 to 9 times better? I guess that's subjective. A fly rod should do a couple of things, in my opinion. It should cast a line effortlessly and should not tire you out in a day of fishing. The weight (in ounces, not line weight) of a rod can be pretty important. The balance might be important, although I don't really see all that much rocket science in balancing a fly rod, since nearly all the rod is in front of your casting hand, unlike a casting or spinning rod where you might have considerable butt behind your hand. Other than that, different people or different uses might have a bearing on the action of a rod. And the care with which it's assembled and the quality of the components will make a difference in the durability--although if you pay a huge amount of money for it, you're probably going to take good care of it, and taking good care of it is probably more important to how long it lasts you than how it was made in the first place.

I can see a handmade high end bamboo rod being worth the money. I just can't see the high end graphite rod being worth that 5-10 times more than the "decent" rod.

There is probably a point where you encounter diminishing returns. For instance, my first couple of fly rods were BPS specials that cost under $100, and I immediately ditched them when I cast my first $250 rod. You could really tell a difference, both in components and weight, and in casting qualities. So I have to say that a really cheap (can't believe we're called under $100 really cheap!) rod is probably a case of getting what you paid for compared to a $200 rod. But is a $400 rod all that much better than the $200 rod?

When it comes to casting and spinning rods, you're choosing from slightly different criteria. You want the lightness and ease of use. You want good quality materials. You may, depending upon your uses for the rod, want great sensitivity, something I'm not sure applies to fly rods. But I don't think a $400 Loomis is four times better than a $100 BPS rod, either. And in fact, the only so-called high end casting rods I own are three that I either found on sale for way off retail or were given to me by a rod rep. I like them, but I like the rest of the rods I use (all of which cost less than $100) as well or I wouldn't be using them. Yes, the high end rods are SOMEWHAT better, and the right one for you and the job you are doing is pure joy to use. But I think a lot of anglers pay for the name so they can brag about the high end rods they own, and you could slap the name on a $50 rod and they couldn't tell the difference in actual use.

To end these musings, I will admit to one consideration. In the course of my career, I have sometimes fished with "rich" clients and other "movers and shakers". I suppose that in those cases, I have an image to project, and part of the image is to use fairly high end gear. Maybe. I don't know how many of those people actually look at my rods to see what brand I'm using. Maybe I'll end up getting that Sage just to fish with the rich and famous...nah, my Simms waders oughta be enough, especially since they say "Simms" on them in big letters.

I used to buy G Loomis rods, I would buy the middle of the road one, which I think was the IMX, I wouldn't spend the money for the GLX. I now buy rods that on sale at Bass Pro or Cabelas. I sometimes buy St. Croix or G Loomis but only if they are on sale. It seems that carbon graphite technology has improved to the point where greater competition has forced the price down. So I think the rods around the $100-$150 are as good as the ones we paid $300 for 10 years ago. I think a guy would be much better off to cheap out on a rod than a reel. I would buy a $200 reel much faster than I would buy a $200 rod, as a matter of fact, I rarely pay more than $99 for a rod anymore. The one exception is my G Loomis crankbait rod that is the finest rod I've ever owned.

[TArcher]

I also bought one of these rods. I bought the Ross FS series 5wt. The guy at the fly shop told me that they were suprisingly a good rod and compare to rods costing much more. I decided to give it a try. Although my casting experience is limited I find this rod casts very well when compared to others. I had a custom RDP rod built in a 5wt also (which is a beautiful rod) and the Ross is definately a lighter blank and the Ross can give me more distance with the same line.

Ross advertises on the website that their rods carry a lifetime warranty but some have told me that the rods are made by Ross Worldwide and only give the rod a 1 year warranty and Ross USA (reels) gives a lifetime warranty. I don't know what to believe.

But yes I agree with you that they are a good little rod. I have often thought about getting a Ross FS 7wt to compare to my 7wt TFO Pro series just for comparison.

Ross does a strength test on youtube of their fly rods and its pretty impressive to see how much pressure is needed to break on of their blanks.

[Gavin]

Al, your just trying to rationalize the difference in cost between the cheap POS that you bought...and the rod you really wanted...If its bamboo, or something odd...I make my own...if its a graphite fly rod, I try a bunch of rods...find one the one I like, buy the blank and Tom Hargrove makes a fantastic custom for me. He could tart it up to the hilt, and its not that much more than factory.

[moguy1973]

It really is amazing how much these things cost...I just don't get it...When I was younger I used a 5wt 8'6" Shakespeare fly rod I got at Grandpa Pidgeons (see if anyone knows what that place is) for like $20 that I caught a lot of fish on for probably 10-15 years. I used that rod up until about maybe 6 years ago when my mom passed away and I acquired her St. Croix 7wt 8'6" rod. I catch just as many fish on that rod. Does it cast a little better? You betcha...Is it worth the $120 more that my mom paid for the St. Croix over the Shakespeare? Probably not...It's all in the way the fisherman uses it and presents the fly to the fish...

[jdmidwest]

Al, your just trying to rationalize the difference in cost between the cheap POS that you bought...and the rod you really wanted...

That is priceless...

He could use another analogy, why buy the Al Agnew Print Fishing shirt when you can get the same shirt without for less at Walmart.

[RSBreth]

I think it's funny one of my favorite rods is what used to be the least expensive fly rod Sage had in it's line-up years ago - a 7'6" 4-weight "Discovery". And I bought it on sale at the old Backcountry when it as in the Fremont Center. I still have it as my favorite Crane Creek rod. Perfect action for what I use it for. I could have spent twice or three times as much - but I doubt if I would be any happier with it.

I think in general you're dead on here - most high end gear is about product image - although there are exceptions.

Most of my river gear is moderate quality - just in case I do dump it. I do have a couple of custom rods - but I didn't go crazy so none of them cost more than 200 bucks in parts.

[gotmuddy]

I have started buying denali rods exclusively for my casting/spinning reels because they have a good warranty and the owner lives so close to me(mtn home). I have been tickled with their performance as well. I will be looking for a trout jig rod soon and I will get one from him.

They have a noirwood series that costs retarded amounts of money IMO (350-400) and the owner told me that I would have no need having those because they are for "pro" anglers and people who just want to spend big money. He said the rosewood rods I have (160-ish) are just as good.

[tjulianc]

I have started buying denali rods exclusively for my casting/spinning reels because they have a good warranty and the owner lives so close to me(mtn home). I have been tickled with their performance as well. I will be looking for a trout jig rod soon and I will get one from him.

They have a noirwood series that costs retarded amounts of money IMO (350-400) and the owner told me that I would have no need having those because they are for "pro" anglers and people who just want to spend big money. He said the rosewood rods I have (160-ish) are just as good.

I didn't know Denali's were made here in the Ozarks. I'll have to check them out next time I'm in the market. There are several good rod builders in the area and I would rather use one of them than a made in China brand. When it comes to G.Loomis, I wonder how much of the cost is in the lifetime, no questions asked warranty?