Smallmouth Issues/msa Meeting

[ozark trout fisher]

I agree, there are idiots everywhere. But I'd bet my dollars to your donuts that the percentage of "deep-woods" locals keeping their limit (and more) is much higher than the percentage of "city slickers" doing the same. Of course not all of them are that way, and I'd never declare that, but the majority of abuse happening on the rivers I frequently visit is inflicted by the locals. I'm not stereotyping...it's just a fact.

If you think that, just look at the rivers and streams that are in the backyards of city people. Most of them are in a lot worse shape than rivers and streams in the deep woods. Some of the creeks I fish for smallmouth and kentuckies around here are so toxic that you're not even supposed to wet-wade them. So you can say that people from cities are on a whole less abusive towards rivers, but based on what I see every day, that just doesn't ring true.

I really don't mean to come off as confrontational, though I'm sure I am. I do pretty much agree with you on what you think the smallmouth regs need to be to improve fishing. It's just that I do think it is important to try to educate people in the value of catch and release along with regs.

Here's my point; four years ago I was a bait fisherman, always kept a limit whenever I could get one, and I really didn't think much of the value of catch and release. There will be some people on here that will remember this. When I said as much on here, there were of course a share of people that just dog-piled and told me how wrong I was. Others actually made the effort to explain to me why catch and release is so important, why length limits, bait restrictions etc. are good for our rivers and those who use them. And you know what, it made a big difference. I'd like to doubt it, but if some people hadn't been willing to do that, maybe that's still the sort of fisherman I'd be.

So hearts and minds can be changed. I know this first hand.

[ness]

Actually, my friend, I seem to remember at the end of our last "discussion", Al and I hammered out a set of regs that I think we all agreed upon. I think we ended up with only two set that covered the whole state. Give me a little time to dig them up.

That'd be interesting to see. I don't recall them, but two sounds just about right. Too complicated, and it just isn't gonna happen.

Anyhoo, I'd say if we wanna haggle on the internet, that's just dandy. But really -- when is there gonna be some kinda of an action come out of all this? Seems like we take these threads too far, until Phil is forced to lock them, then a few months later we do it all over again. But nothing gets DONE. In a broad sense, here's what needs to be done:

1) Tighten up the regs

2) Improve enforcement efforts

3) Work toward getting the bad guys caught and convicted

4) And, while we're at it, educate folks (landowners, CA, other authorities) about access laws

Anybody that agrees wanna pick one and suggest how to make something happen? (ness figures 40-1 odds against)

[eric1978]

If you think that, just look at the rivers and streams that are in the backyards of city people. Most of them are in a lot worse shape than rivers and streams in the deep woods. Some of the creeks I fish for smallmouth and kentuckies around here are so toxic that you're not even supposed to wet-wade them. So you can say that people from cities are on a whole less abusive towards rivers, but based on what I see every day, that just doesn't ring true.

You gotta consider the population densities when making those comparisons. We're packed in like sardines up here...of course it's a mess. And yeah, people everywhere are hoosiers and throw their trash in rivers and generally don't give a darn. I'm not making the case that living in the city or suburbs means you're not a disgusting pig. I'm just making the observation that our nicest, prettiest, cleanest Ozark streams...they tend to be molested most by the folks who live nearest them...generally.

And again, I'm all for reaching out and educating the public on C&R. Of course that's a good thing. But it's not realistically enough on its own...at least not in my lifetime. There are so many people who are totally incapable of or resistant to education and change, and those people are gonna have to be brought with us on leashes, kicking and screaming, to the new world. They'll thank us later.

[Mitch f]

That'd be interesting to see. I don't recall them, but two sounds just about right. Too complicated, and it just isn't gonna happen.

Anyhoo, I'd say if we wanna haggle on the internet, that's just dandy. But really -- when is there gonna be some kinda of an action come out of all this? Seems like we take these threads too far, until Phil is forced to lock them, then a few months later we do it all over again. But nothing gets DONE. In a broad sense, here's what needs to be done:

1) Tighten up the regs

2) Improve enforcement efforts

3) Work toward getting the bad guys caught and convicted

4) And, while we're at it, educate folks (landowners, CA, other authorities) about access laws

Anybody that agrees wanna pick one and suggest how to make something happen? (ness figures 40-1 odds against)

Agreed Ness, not happy about it but it's the truth. Hardly anyone on this forum can agree on anything. Like Lincoln said, "you can please some of the people some of the time". I think the MDC will make a decision and we will all live with it...end of story

[Al Agnew]

You gotta consider the population densities when making those comparisons. We're packed in like sardines up here...of course it's a mess. And yeah, people everywhere are hoosiers and throw their trash in rivers and generally don't give a darn. I'm not making the case that living in the city or suburbs means you're not a disgusting pig. I'm just making the observation that our nicest, prettiest, cleanest Ozark streams...they tend to be molested most by the folks who live nearest them...generally.

And again, I'm all for reaching out and educating the public on C&R. Of course that's a good thing. But it's not realistically enough on its own...at least not in my lifetime. There are so many people who are totally incapable of or resistant to education and change, and those people are gonna have to be brought with us on leashes, kicking and screaming, to the new world. They'll thank us later.

To add a bit to what Eric is saying...what we have to realize is that a whole lot of people either don't care about Ozark streams, or have other economic priorities that convince them that the well-being of a creek isn't REALLY being harmed by what they are doing. That includes both city people and country people. But as Eric said, there is a much greater density of city people, meaning much more abuse of streams around cities. If 75% of south St. Louis doesn't care about the lower Meramec, and 75% of Waynesville doesn't care about the Gasconade, the lower Meramec is going to be a lot more trashed than the Gasconade.

Here's the other thing, though. There are plenty of locals who love their rivers. But familiarity sometimes breeds, if not contempt, at least complacency. It's easy to overlook gradual changes when you are there all the time, or to accept them as inevitable, the "cost of progress". But when you only visit a couple times a year, the changes are a lot more obvious and distressing.

In the end, though, it's a matter of priorities. Nobody wants dirty water and poor fishing. But to many, clean water and good fishing is far down their list of the things they really care about. The gravel miner cares more about the money to be made from selling gravel than the possible effects to the river; in fact, it's easy for him to convince himself that he isn't really harming the river by digging out the channel. The campground owner catering to horseback riders cares more about his client base than about the effects of horse manure and eroded trails on the river. There may be people working for whatever company it is that is dumping chemicals in otf's creek that love to fish or love creeks, but they love their job more. And the guy who legally keeps six smallmouth every time he goes probably would like to see better fishing, too, but he still wants to keep six fish every time.

[FishinCricket]

Have you called Operation Game Thief??

And tell them what? These guys are taking a legal creel of smallies, goggleye and trout EVERY NIGHT. Legal, mind you...

And yes, I've called when I've had to. After I've exhausted my efforts at reasoning with them, when possible.. (why ask? You know that much about me)

[jdmidwest]

Whoa.

Ron, 10 Mile Creek is almost totally encased in private property. That is why you don't hear much about it. Acess is limited and fishing is ok, not great. Watch your back and your vehicle when you try it out. It has a good population of cottonmouths also.

[Chief Grey Bear]

And tell them what? These guys are taking a legal creel of smallies, goggleye and trout EVERY NIGHT. Legal, mind you...

And yes, I've called when I've had to. After I've exhausted my efforts at reasoning with them, when possible.. (why ask? You know that much about me)

Sorry Cricket, I went back and re-read your post. I was thinking they were down there poaching. But you talking over a period of time.

[Gavin]

I really dont care at this point....MDC seems to have allot invested this go around, but I'm not getting my hopes up until I see a concrete proposal. Carry on.

[Chief Grey Bear]

That'd be interesting to see. I don't recall them, but two sounds just about right. Too complicated, and it just isn't gonna happen.

Well I have spent quite a bit of time this evening running through most of threads we had back then talking smallmouth. HOLY COW, do we have pages and pages and pages of that.

At any rate I think it went something like this;

Smallmouth Bass on unimpounded waters, All smallmouth between 13-18 inches must be released immediately unharmed. Only 4 smallmouth less than 13 inches and only 1 over 18 inches may be in possession. Except: On unimpounded waters west of Hwy 65 and south of Interstate 44 all smallmouth between 12-15 inches must be released immediately unharmed. Only 4 smallmouth less than 12inches and 1 over 15 inches may be in possession.

Between Nov.1 and May 31 no black bass may be in possession while on unimpounded waters.