Smallmouth Issues/msa Meeting

[Gavin]

If you have your heart set on catch & release only regulations you are going to be disappointed. MDC wont propose them. You might as well accept that as gospel and ask for something that you can get.

[FishinCricket]

If you have your heart set on catch & release only regulations you are going to be disappointed. MDC wont propose them. You might as well accept that as gospel and ask for something that you can get.

Oh, great!! Someone always has to bring the Gospel into the conversation!! Red X here we come!!

(just joshin of course)

[ness]

I live in a large metropolitan area with over one million people. My particular suburb has less than 100,000, and I live west of probably 90% of the population. I don't live in the woods, but I've got some trees in my yard. So -- am I a sophisticated city dwelling, meat-eating poacher, or an inbred hillbilly meat-eating poacher? I just want to know which bucket you stereotypists put US in so I can prejudge myself.

[Mitch f]

I live in a large metropolitan area with over one million people. My particular suburb has less than 100,000, and I live west of probably 90% of the population. I don't live in the woods, but I've got some trees in my yard. So -- am I a sophisticated city dwelling, meat-eating poacher, or an inbred hillbilly meat-eating poacher? I just want to know which bucket you stereotypists put US in so I can prejudge myself.

Perhaps I can help with clarifying questions:

Are you a west county snob, or a south St. Louis redneck?

Are you an artsy fartsy central west end type?

Or perhaps you have sympathies with an inner city hip urban guy that rents a flat?

Or maybe a Webster Groves self righteous type?

Do you prononce hwy 44 as Farty Far?

Do you think it's cool to shoot a potato cannon?

And last but not least, Which high school did you go to?

Any answer can help the assessment

[cwc87]

Wow!! It took me forever to get thru all the posts! I attended the smallmouth alliance meeting last week and tried to retain as much as possible.

First, I am familiar with the courtois and the Meramec watershed. However, I have been on the Big,Black,Current,Jacks,elevenpt,gasconade,piney,James,Norhfork of the White,Mineral fk, and have caught my fair of 80-100smallmouth per trip days.

Secondly, I am thinking that Al hit the nail on the head with many factors in his post about the headwaters being catch and realease(make them a blue ribbon area) and the areas with special length limit regulation to either be a slot, 4 fish being 14 inchers but, keeping the two current 1 fish 18 inch areas.

This whole smallmouth project is such a daunting task for MDC is a reason why they haven't tackled it yet. But, all us anglers showing them this much interest is getting the MDC to realize what a great fish a smallmouth truly is.

Being raised in a rual area and having a college degree has raised my awareness how I approach some of my neighbors.

Now, with that being said, One tactic that may fly is to put the smallmouth on a platform that can be showcased as a way for folks to accept it like the bald eagle , Elk, ect.. Most of our smallmouth live in depressed rual Ozark areas. If the locals can start appreciating them for bringing in tourist and understand what it is like to catch them.

Some of the qustions I have from the meeting/study are: What are the zipcodes from the reward tags mailed to?

What are the breakdowns on fish harvested and released?

Also, what are some of the Stats on the Agents writing tickets regarding smallmouth being (gigged, live bait in a artificial area, too many in creel, Length violation, ect....)

On a positive note, At least the smallmouth are getting some serious attention by MDC and that the time has been long overdue. Tight lines friends!!!

[ness]

Perhaps I can help with clarifying questions:

Are you a west county snob, or a south St. Louis redneck?

Are you an artsy fartsy central west end type?

Or perhaps you have sympathies with an inner city hip urban guy that rents a flat?

Or maybe a Webster Groves self righteous type?

Do you prononce hwy 44 as Farty Far?

Do you think it's cool to shoot a potato cannon?

And last but not least, Which high school did you go to?

Any answer can help the assessment

no, no, no, no, no, sorta, Chaminade West

[Al Agnew]

Ya know, I wouldn't be opposed to applying this to all Black bass. In fact I would like it even more. And I think you should keep your current Spotted bass special reg in your Meramec and Gascon systems, as long as we are not seeing a reduction in LM due to mis-identification.

I think you and MJ are right. We need to combine all three species in the slot so that the total coming out at any one time can not exceed 5 fish in any combination.

So how does this look:

Black Bass on unimpounded waters, All Black Bass between 13-18 inches must be released immediately unharmed. Only 4 Black Bass less than 13 inches and only 1 over 18 inches may be in possession. Except: On unimpounded waters west of Hwy 65 and south of Interstate 44 all Black Bass between 12-15 inches must be released immediately unharmed. Only 4 Black Bass less than 12inches and 1 over 15 inches may be in possession.

Between Nov.1 and May 31 no black bass may be in possession while on unimpounded waters.

I believe that would be a whole lot better than what we have now. Only possible bad thing about it would be that spotted bass would be SLIGHTLY favored by it. They wouldn't be favored in the under slot fish; you'd catch the same percentages of spots as the others there. But you'd very seldom catch a spot over 18, meaning that overall you'd end up with more spotted bass over 13 inches surviving. This would not be a problem in most south-flowing streams where the spotted bass and smallmouth have always been segregated by habitat anyway, but it might become a problem on a few streams (I'm thinking mainly the St. Francis, Bryant Creek, and the James). I would also quibble a bit on the numbers...I'd somewhat rather see 3 under and 1 over and raise the under to 14 inches. But I could live with what you are proposing. Problem is, slots are not biologically necessary according to the biologists, so I'm somewhat pessimistic about a statewide slot ever happening.

[Outside Bend]

I live in a large metropolitan area with over one million people. My particular suburb has less than 100,000, and I live west of probably 90% of the population. I don't live in the woods, but I've got some trees in my yard. So -- am I a sophisticated city dwelling, meat-eating poacher, or an inbred hillbilly meat-eating poacher? I just want to know which bucket you stereotypists put US in so I can prejudge myself.

Yeah...I mostly agree with you guys as far as policy goes, I just don't see how demonizing the other side as a bunch of ignorant, selfish, backwards inbred hicks really services the cause. Local catch and keep guys don't have the market cornered on ignorance- there's plenty of C&R guys who think that because they release fish, they have no impact on the resource. I just think you guys are overestimating the true number of ignorant arseholes in the Ozarks- and yes, those folks exist. But most I've met are decent enough, they just suffer from the same delusions of those C&R guys- they don't realize they're impacting the fishery. That doesn't make them evil, and I promise if you walk into a meeting telling them how dumb they are, you won't get a positive response.

What I was trying to get at a few posts back was we can manage smallmouth two ways- regulation and education. We can make it illegal for folks to harvest 12 inch smallies, or we can convince them harvesting 12 inch smallies isn't the best use of the resource. I think both routes have their place, and I really don't see why we should minimize the education component. Let's not pretend it's about the time component- with ten years of smallmouth research, three years since the release of the White Paper, we're all still at our computers ruminating smallie regs with practically nothing to show for it. I'd humbly submit the legislative process isn't breaking any land-speed records. And even if regs were passed tomorrow, the effect on the fish population probably wouldn't be visible for a few years. If time hasn't been an impediment to the legislative side, we can't complain about it being an impediment on the education side.

And yeah, there's some folks who aren't going to change their opinion for anyone. I agree we'll never reach those folks, so there's no use in trying. I just don't think that demographic is everyone in the Ozarks, or even the overwhelming majority. Eric didn't like my muskie example, so I'll pick another one- MDC education efforts helped bring about the end of open range in the Ozarks, and the reforestation of the region. Many of the outdoor opportunities we have today exist because those stupid selfish locals learned some of their practices weren't in the best interest of the resource. We can claim it's impossible, but it's been done before.

I like the idea of stiffer regs, I just don't think they're the silver bullet some claim. And given the leaps and bounds we haven't made in smallmouth management over the past fourteen years, I think re-evaluating the position, perhaps taking a broader approach, is at least worth examining. I mean, if we keep propose the same reg changes every year, and MDC ignores those reg changes every year...isn't it possible there's something we're missing?

[ness]

good post snipped

Yeah, it's a combination of things that will get it done. Kinda like I proposed a page or two back -- stiffen, enforce, convict, educate. If there's no movement on the regs, get in there and figure out why. That means getting with the MDC and talking it over. I don't keep up on all this, but from what little I've seen, it seems like MSA is doing some of that. Might be they're the only ones, or the most vocal -- I just don't know. Blowin' in the door complaining of redneck poachers, or city-boy trophy hunters gets you where? Anybody?

Enforcement's been an issue forever. But blowin' in the door saying the CA's are all lazy...again, nobody's gonna listen after that. Being the squeaky wheel, calling Game Thief Hotline, steering that CA toward what we care about -- that's productive.

I don't know how you go about getting more convictions, but I wouldn't write that one off. I suspect a lot of times it's just not considered a big enough deal to mess with. Or, maybe the prosecutors/judges just never had their ear bent. You don't have to be a bleeding-heart tree-hugger to want to convict a poacher.

Education? I'd bet money MDC would be open to co-authoring or endorsing some materials or program geared toward educating the public. Nobody's gonna care if it's on ness letterhead though. MDC/MSA joint effort, possibly?

Just thinking out loud. Back to work...

[Outside Bend]

I believe that would be a whole lot better than what we have now. Only possible bad thing about it would be that spotted bass would be SLIGHTLY favored by it. They wouldn't be favored in the under slot fish; you'd catch the same percentages of spots as the others there. But you'd very seldom catch a spot over 18, meaning that overall you'd end up with more spotted bass over 13 inches surviving. This would not be a problem in most south-flowing streams where the spotted bass and smallmouth have always been segregated by habitat anyway, but it might become a problem on a few streams (I'm thinking mainly the St. Francis, Bryant Creek, and the James). I would also quibble a bit on the numbers...I'd somewhat rather see 3 under and 1 over and raise the under to 14 inches. But I could live with what you are proposing. Problem is, slots are not biologically necessary according to the biologists, so I'm somewhat pessimistic about a statewide slot ever happening.

I like the ideas along this vein. If the main argument for harvest is a shore lunch/tradition Ozark meal, what would you guys think about setting the daily and possession limit at the same value? IMO a half-dozen fish per person would be plenty to put those issues to rest- without having a bunch of folks stuffing freezers full of smallies.

Also- was the original design of the SMA's for them to function as refuges? My thought is if you had intensively (trophy) managed 20-30 mile reaches smallmouth production could outstrip habitat, the excess fish then augmenting shorter harvest reaches. I dunno if that's what the current management regime is designed to accomplish, if it's working, or if it could be tweaked to work that way- and it could well become a regulatory nightmare. But it's something else to mull over, and I'd like to see this thread get to ten pages