Smallmouth Issues/msa Meeting

[Chief Grey Bear]

A lot to digest. About the signs at access points, I put the signs on the James River from Delaware Town down to Galena in 2010. I sent emails out last year to Matt Wier to put out more signs at other areas in SW MO, never got any. Would be happy to replace those if needed and to put signs on other streams where they are needed. I might also add that when I called the MDC office to find out the proper place to put them I was told it was illegal to post any signs on MDC access property I put them up anyway and with metal post that I purchased. I was one of the all most nobody who atended the meetings that Gary Lane held in Springfield. I joined MSA because I think that they are the only group that is doing anything about the problems in smallmouth streams I don't believe that world class smallmouth fishing is an attainable goal in most MO streams. I hope I'm wrong but other than the Gasconade or Meramac I don't know that our streams have the water to grow realy big fish. So I don't agree that all their goals are practical. I like the idea of over under on the slot limits, but would prefer 6 under 12 inches and none over. If we really want to protect big fish I've seen good results in lakes with slot limits. To guys that say they don't eat smallmouth because they don't taste good. . Are you saying you would eat them if they tasted great? Worms in smallmouth? Have you ever cleaned a google eye in the summer and not found worms? I don't kill smallmouth in streams because they are too valuable to me and I havn't kept a smallmouth from a stream in over twenty years or from a lake since 1999. I really don't get upset if other people keep smallmouth if it is legal. I wish they wouldn't but it's legal. I'm also sure that you guys, if you catch a 20 inch or longer you are going to release it immediatly and not wait for someone to get out a camera to take a few pictures. I'm sure that is legal but I don't like it. I do believe that no effort to improve fishing is going to work if the Mr Praters of the world are going to be allowed to run the Chief Grey Bears off the stream. If I have any criticism of the MSA I think they should be all over that. I think if that had happened around St Louis they would be.

Best common sense post so far. Its like you read my mind.

I was at the Delaware access last month and no sign was present. Just for info.

And that is what, 2 or 3 times the amount of smallmouth trips Drew has taken in his entire life? By your logic he shouldn't even be allowed to read this thread, let a lone post in it.

Sounds logical. Only difference is Drew is not advocating the total shutdown of smallmouth catch and keep.

Point being, the amount of time you get to spend chasing a smallmouth obviously doesn't have any sort of relative proportion to how much you might care about them or even know about them. Also, I would venture to say that much like you and I, Chief, that Eric spent exponentially more days chasing smallies in years past than he has at his current point in life (read as before wives, kids and less demanding jobs).

I am not saying and have never said he is not passionate about them.

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[Chief Grey Bear]

Guys, I didn't need to come home from a fishing trip today and read all this. For crying out loud, don't we all want good stream smallmouth fishing? Can anybody honestly say that they are doing more, or as much, for it as the Smallmouth Alliance? If you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem. If you don't like how the ONE organization in the state that actually works for better smallmouth fishing is doing things, then either join them and put in your two cents worth from the inside, or shut up and start your own organization, or do it on your own. I don't mind arguing the finer points of what could or should be done...I think that's very productive as well as interesting, and it could eventually result in getting points across. But geez, why in the world would you feel that dissing the SMA without having anything constructive to say, griping because they don't represent SW MO, etc. is productive?

I am sure this is how the MDC feels all the time. And is it really dissing or constructive criticism of an ogranization that the members find no fault in?

And on a side note, I have never said anything about the representation of the MSA in SWMO.

Good point by the way about the gigging and the tags. Sounds very plausable.

[Chief Grey Bear]

If I'm being too harsh, I'm in about as bad a mood as you can be after spending the day on the river and catching more than 30 bass. Why? Because I'm about ready to throw up my hands and give up on ANYTHING being able to improve the numbers of big fish on jetboatable streams like the Meramec. Yes, I caught 30 some odd bass, about 3/4ths smallmouths. Eight or so over 15 inches. A 17.5 incher, a 17 incher, and a 16.5 incher. And you know what? Those three biggest ones ALL had nasty gig wounds. The biggest was gigged in the meaty part of the tail about halfway between the tail fin and the back of the dorsal fin. One tine, went all the way through from top to bottom. Top hole was about half healed over. Skin on both sides from top to bottom was swollen, red, infected. Bottom hole was horrible, totally unhealed with a big wad of fungus growing out of it.

Other than the nasty gig wounds, around 50% or so of your bass were 15 inches or more. That is one good point to a very sad story.

[eric1978]

Just don't think it is right for someone that fishes very little to restrict those that fish far more.

If you understood the workings of the slot, which is to help you catch bigger fish on your few trips per year, which I think is what you are wanting, you wouldn't be asking rediculous questions. I would like to hear from you why you think the rivers were just chocked full of super huge smallmouth just waiting for someone to catch them?? And don't forget, there were more natural predators then as oposed to now. But at any rate, noone can say with anything other than an assumption that fishing was any better then than now.

Well I guess we've hit a brick wall when this becomes your rationale to dismiss my opinion, because it's totally irrelevant. You're absolutely right that I'm only able to schedule a trip every month or six weeks...at best. But that's irrelevant. Jason is also right that I used to spend nearly entire summers chasing smallmouth when I owned property ON a river. Irrelevant. And how often would you be able to hit a stream if you had to drive at least two and a half hours to do so every time you had the urge? Because I'm quite certain that if I had good rivers in my back yard, I'd be on them far more than 50 days a year. But that's irrelevant. None of this means that I'm any more or less passionate about pursuing these fish than you are, nor does it mean that either one of us have a degree in biology or fisheries management. We're both just pulling arbitrary numbers out of our butts and making cases for them without any formal scientific education or legitemate understanding of the complex ecosystems we both love and enjoy. It's all irrelevant.

What IS relevant, though, as you correctly and constantly point out, is establishing regulations that make the resource work for everyone, instead of regulations that favor one group over another. Well guess what? Our current regulations do exactly the latter, by favoring the meat hunter and allowing one group of "anglers" to keep our rivers in a state of perpetual mediocrity. How is that fair? Why do they get to dictate the quality of our fisheries? The argument cuts both ways, but the difference is proponents of C&R and tighter regulations have a far smaller impact on those who exploit the resource than they inversely have on us. I catch a great fish and return it to the water for others to enjoy down the road, possibly several times more. Maybe you'll get to catch that same fish one day when it's even bigger and fights even harder, maybe Corndawg will. That's good for at least two of us. The meat hunter catches that fish and he turns it into poop. That's not good for anyone but him.

[Flysmallie]

That's not good for anyone but him.

Worms like it. Could probably feed a whole colony of worms.

Same old argument, same old name calling, same old BS.

[ness]

Worms like it. Could probably feed a whole colony of worms.

Same old argument, same old name calling, same old BS.

LOL. Who wants to join me in forming the MoKan Earthworm Alliance? Nobody ever gives those fellers a second thought. But, believe me, we all would if we were knee-deep in poop!

[Dan Kreher]

Guys, I didn't need to come home from a fishing trip today and read all this. For crying out loud, don't we all want good stream smallmouth fishing? Can anybody honestly say that they are doing more, or as much, for it as the Smallmouth Alliance? If you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem. If you don't like how the ONE organization in the state that actually works for better smallmouth fishing is doing things, then either join them and put in your two cents worth from the inside, or shut up and start your own organization, or do it on your own. I don't mind arguing the finer points of what could or should be done...I think that's very productive as well as interesting, and it could eventually result in getting points across. But geez, why in the world would you feel that dissing the SMA without having anything constructive to say, griping because they don't represent SW MO, etc. is productive?

If I'm being too harsh, I'm in about as bad a mood as you can be after spending the day on the river and catching more than 30 bass. Why? Because I'm about ready to throw up my hands and give up on ANYTHING being able to improve the numbers of big fish on jetboatable streams like the Meramec. Yes, I caught 30 some odd bass, about 3/4ths smallmouths. Eight or so over 15 inches. A 17.5 incher, a 17 incher, and a 16.5 incher. And you know what? Those three biggest ones ALL had nasty gig wounds. The biggest was gigged in the meaty part of the tail about halfway between the tail fin and the back of the dorsal fin. One tine, went all the way through from top to bottom. Top hole was about half healed over. Skin on both sides from top to bottom was swollen, red, infected. Bottom hole was horrible, totally unhealed with a big wad of fungus growing out of it.

The second biggest was even worse. The fish had been hit just behind the head, with the gig at an angle. One tine went from top of the back all the way through and coming out just above the pelvic fin, another tine went through the top of the gill cover and out the bottom of the gills, third tine was on the other side of the body and farther back, and just skinned the side of the fish an inch or so behind the pectoral fin. Again, the wound in the back was about 3/4ths healed, but the wound in the belly next to the pelvic fin was unhealed and had the same fungus growing from it, and the wounds in the gill cover were red and infected.

The third one got lucky. The pinhead who tried to gig it had the gig turned so that the tines were lengthwise to the fish, and he almost missed, leaving four parallel, perfectly spaced gashes on the fish's side, which were mostly healed.

I took pictures of all three fish. If you care to see them I'll post them. All three came from the same pool, which is pretty close to an access but is a good wintering pool where I've caught lots of big fish inpast years. What are the chances that any big fish wintering in that pool this winter escaped being gigged? How many of them died? What are the odds that those two biggest ones are going to succumb to those wounds eventually?

And if I hear one person say that those could be heron scars or something else stupid like that, I'll be happy to tell them to their face that they're an idiot.

And the next time I hear somebody from MDC say there's no evidence that gigging is harming bass populations, I'll let them know exactly how incredibly stupid THAT statement is, too.

What are the chances that ANY regulation designed to produce more 18 inch plus smallies will work in popular gigging streams, since it appears that in any good gigging year a huge percentage of those that have survived to that size will be gigged by some selfish cretan.

In fact, what are the odds that half or more of those nice little money tags that MDC is so happy to be getting back came from smallies that were gigged to get them? I'll lay odds that one reason the cretins seem to have gigged more smallies this year than ever is because they figured they might get lucky and gig a tagged fish. Not only do something illegal, but actually benefit from doing it!

Saw 2 dead gigged smallies on Meramec around popular Fishing Spring access back in January. This issue clearly needs to be dealt with. I will bring it up to MDC Fisheries Chief Chris Vitello if I get an opportunity this weekend. MDC has informational gigging signs but self-policing ranks of giggers is clearly not sufficient to curb acts of bad apples. We need more enforcement here which, as we know, is a difficult thing to get when budgets are tight. I do like the idea of conducting an enforement sting in areas of suspected illegal gigging activity -- it would likely nail some bad guys and send a message to cut this crap out. Hate to take position that puts all giggers into same boat -- certainly it is a small minority who are the lawbreakers we can only hope. Think this issue needs more attention clearly. Streams like the Meramec, Gasconade and Niangua could become some of the best smallie waters in the country if they were properly managed and laws were enforced -- both for folks using rods & reels and a giggers trident.

[Dan Kreher]

A lot to digest. About the signs at access points, I put the signs on the James River from Delaware Town down to Galena in 2010. I sent emails out last year to Matt Wier to put out more signs at other areas in SW MO, never got any. Would be happy to replace those if needed and to put signs on other streams where they are needed. I might also add that when I called the MDC office to find out the proper place to put them I was told it was illegal to post any signs on MDC access property I put them up anyway and with metal post that I purchased.

I was one of the all most nobody who atended the meetings that Gary Lane held in Springfield.

I joined MSA because I think that they are the only group that is doing anything about the problems in smallmouth streams I don't believe that world class smallmouth fishing is an attainable goal in most MO streams. I hope I'm wrong but other than the Gasconade or Meramac I don't know that our streams have the water to grow realy big fish. So I don't agree that all their goals are practical.

I like the idea of over under on the slot limits, but would prefer 6 under 12 inches and none over. If we really want to protect big fish I've seen good results in lakes with slot limits.

To guys that say they don't eat smallmouth because they don't taste good. . Are you saying you would eat them if they tasted great? Worms in smallmouth? Have you ever cleaned a google eye in the summer and not found worms? I don't kill smallmouth in streams because they are too valuable to me and I havn't kept a smallmouth from a stream in over twenty years or from a lake since 1999. I really don't get upset if other people keep smallmouth if it is legal. I wish they wouldn't but it's legal. I'm also sure that you guys, if you catch a 20 inch or longer you are going to release it immediatly and not wait for someone to get out a camera to take a few pictures. I'm sure that is legal but I don't like it.

I do believe that no effort to improve fishing is going to work if the Mr Praters of the world are going to be allowed to run the Chief Grey Bears off the stream. If I have any criticism of the MSA I think they should be all over that. I think if that had happened around St Louis they would be.

MSA is highlighting stream access/tresspass laws in our upcoming newsletter. We've known about the access issues on upper Osage Fork (I believe that's who you're referrign to) for many years and some of our STL-based members have attempted both successfully and unsuccessfully to access that stretch. It comes down to a law enforcement/courts issue. His family's posting (I believe he's now deceased) of that stretch is both lawful and unlawful -- no need to get into that now.

Regarding MSA signs -- I handle that program for the MO Smallmouth Alliance as Conservation Chairman. I work with Matt Wier a lot and did not receive word from anyone that they were looking for signs to post last year. Crossed signals or dropped ball I'm not sure. I'd be glad to hook anyone up with signs, list of accesess, posting guidelines, etc. this year when we get our new signs approved by MDC and produced. I'll send out work on Ozark Anglers when the time comes.

Regarding ability of our streams to produce World Class SMB Angling -- true all streams' habitat is not created equal. However, if folks are able to catch 18-19 inch smallies in small creeks with very questionable habitat that are protected by remoteness and/or no angler harvest, then I'd surely bet that our larger streams with excellent habitat and food sources are capable of same. Rivers like the Niangua, Current, Gasconade, Meramec and many other others (Crooked Creek, Kings, etc.) have awesome habitat but suffer from a myraid of consumption-based issues many of which have been well-chronicled on this Forum.

I and many others on this site have fished a lot of places around North America chasing smallies. We find that -- where angler harvest is curtailed due to special regulations, difficult access, lack of SMB harvest tradition amongst locals, no gigging, reintroduce of river otters, etc etc -- average fish sizes are much higher than we have here in Ozarks. Many of these areas in upper Midwest and Canada have much shorter growing seasons than we do here so their 18-inch fish are just as old as ours (at least 10 years in most cases). Research has proven than natural mortality of adult SMB in streams is extremely low without angler harvest. No reason that a river is capable of producing gobs of 10-12 adult SMB but not gobs of 14-18 inch fish based on food and habitat. Problem is that too many of our fish over 12 inches are harvested by anglers under existing regulations and/or prevalence of catch and keep philosophy. So, MSA clearly does believe Missouri / Arkansas / Oklahoma can produce world class angling for stream smallies if protected and managed for quality rather than under the prevalent maximum sustained yield philosophy which allows the species to be self-sustaining but at expense of quality sizes.

That's what MSA is trying to change along with angler attitudes while addressing certain illegal practices like gigging of sport fish. We've not formally taken on the gigging issue since it is a tough one to tackle without alienating a large chunk of folks who enjoy this Ozarks tradition. We are starting to work with MDC on addressing abuses here and Al's recent experience may serve as a great catalyst to launch this initiative.

Regarding Illegal Gigging of MDC Tagged Smallies -- MDC did consider this as a risk of unwittingly promoting illegal gigging of fish worth money. Based on my conversation with them back in December on this issue, they'd not yet seen any sort of evidence of this -- yet. I'll circle back with them soon to see if any disturbing patterns in returns tags has resulted since then. Unbelievable!

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