Smallmouth Issues/msa Meeting

[Smalliebigs]

"If I'm being too harsh, I'm in about as bad a mood as you can be after spending the day on the river and catching more than 30 bass. Why? Because I'm about ready to throw up my hands and give up on ANYTHING being able to improve the numbers of big fish on jetboatable streams like the Meramec. Yes, I caught 30 some odd bass, about 3/4ths smallmouths. Eight or so over 15 inches. A 17.5 incher, a 17 incher, and a 16.5 incher. And you know what? Those three biggest ones ALL had nasty gig wounds. The biggest was gigged in the meaty part of the tail about halfway between the tail fin and the back of the dorsal fin. One tine, went all the way through from top to bottom. Top hole was about half healed over. Skin on both sides from top to bottom was swollen, red, infected. Bottom hole was horrible, totally unhealed with a big wad of fungus growing out of it.

The second biggest was even worse. The fish had been hit just behind the head, with the gig at an angle. One tine went from top of the back all the way through and coming out just above the pelvic fin, another tine went through the top of the gill cover and out the bottom of the gills, third tine was on the other side of the body and farther back, and just skinned the side of the fish an inch or so behind the pectoral fin. Again, the wound in the back was about 3/4ths healed, but the wound in the belly next to the pelvic fin was unhealed and had the same fungus growing from it, and the wounds in the gill cover were red and infected.

The third one got lucky. The pinhead who tried to gig it had the gig turned so that the tines were lengthwise to the fish, and he almost missed, leaving four parallel, perfectly spaced gashes on the fish's side, which were mostly healed.

I took pictures of all three fish. If you care to see them I'll post them. All three came from the same pool, which is pretty close to an access but is a good wintering pool where I've caught lots of big fish inpast years. What are the chances that any big fish wintering in that pool this winter escaped being gigged? How many of them died? What are the odds that those two biggest ones are going to succumb to those wounds eventually

"..........

Al, that sucks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! please post the pics so the people who don't fish in the Winter can see the carnage that we see every winter. It's so sad to hear and I pointed out to John at the meeting that the tagged fish is a boondogle for giggers who don't give a ######. I am soo sick of people who gig bass................. makes want to go on the war path.

********** What are the chances that ANY regulation designed to produce more 18 inch plus smallies will work in popular gigging streams, since it appears that in any good gigging year a huge percentage of those that have survived to that size will be gigged by some selfish cretin?*********** ding ding ding ding.....winner winner chicken dinner.........You are so right Al.....we and the MDC will never know

********And the next time I hear somebody from MDC say there's no evidence that gigging is harming bass populations, I'll let them know exactly how incredibly stupid THAT statement is, too.************************* Halleluja Al!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I went to a hole above Redhorse and caught two with gig marks....it's amazing how resilient thos fish are

[Mitch f]

I think gigging is by far our biggest problem, and no complicated rules or slot limits are going to change that.

A 100% true statement!! applause! The guys who fish all winter know this but it seems to fall on deaf ears.

[Smalliebigs]

10 pages!!!!!! Outside Bend will be happy

[Addicted to Creeks]

I keep hearing the phrase "Ozark Tradition" does doing something for long enough mean that its not a bad idea?

[drew03cmc]

And that is what, 2 or 3 times the amount of smallmouth trips Drew has taken in his entire life? By your logic he shouldn't even be allowed to read this thread, let a lone post in it.

Point being, the amount of time you get to spend chasing a smallmouth obviously doesn't have any sort of relative proportion to how much you might care about them or even know about them. Also, I would venture to say that much like you and I, Chief, that Eric spent exponentially more days chasing smallies in years past than he has at his current point in life (read as before wives, kids and less demanding jobs).

Jason, you are right. I don't have as much smallmouth fishing experience as most on this site. I do, however, have unbridled passion for the species and the conservation methods necessary to preserve a resource. I, too, have fished a hell of a lot more before wife and kids, but you know what, I wouldn't trade them for anything, well, almost anything.

Well I guess we've hit a brick wall when this becomes your rationale to dismiss my opinion, because it's totally irrelevant. You're absolutely right that I'm only able to schedule a trip every month or six weeks...at best. But that's irrelevant. Jason is also right that I used to spend nearly entire summers chasing smallmouth when I owned property ON a river. Irrelevant. And how often would you be able to hit a stream if you had to drive at least two and a half hours to do so every time you had the urge? Because I'm quite certain that if I had good rivers in my back yard, I'd be on them far more than 50 days a year. But that's irrelevant. None of this means that I'm any more or less passionate about pursuing these fish than you are, nor does it mean that either one of us have a degree in biology or fisheries management. We're both just pulling arbitrary numbers out of our butts and making cases for them without any formal scientific education or legitemate understanding of the complex ecosystems we both love and enjoy. It's all irrelevant.

What IS relevant, though, as you correctly and constantly point out, is establishing regulations that make the resource work for everyone, instead of regulations that favor one group over another. Well guess what? Our current regulations do exactly the latter, by favoring the meat hunter and allowing one group of "anglers" to keep our rivers in a state of perpetual mediocrity. How is that fair? Why do they get to dictate the quality of our fisheries? The argument cuts both ways, but the difference is proponents of C&R and tighter regulations have a far smaller impact on those who exploit the resource than they inversely have on us. I catch a great fish and return it to the water for others to enjoy down the road, possibly several times more. Maybe you'll get to catch that same fish one day when it's even bigger and fights even harder, maybe Corndawg will. That's good for at least two of us. The meat hunter catches that fish and he turns it into poop. That's not good for anyone but him.

Eric, I can sympathize with not being able to hit the water whenever I want. I have creeks and ponds up here that I can go fish for an hour here or there, but when i want to get away for a day or two, it takes a couple weeks worth of advance planning. I can completely understand your viewpoint here. It sucks living this far from what we love.

How do the current regulations favor the meat fisherman? I like that you can keep a couple fish if you so choose, but most smallmouth bass fishermen that I know will not keep smallmouth anyway. I will put this out here and say that if and when I catch a smallmouth over 20", I would likely keep the first one and put it on the wall. With that said, I would favor a 15/3 or 18/2 regulation statewide.

Illegal gigging always has been a problem, not just on smallmouth, but trout and other species as well. I’ve found the same evidence as Al in the past. It hasn’t been all giggers, but a few, just as our streams suffers from the occasional fish hog who will catch and keep every smallmouth he can with a rod, regardless of limits or rules.

It is always the few who ruin something for the many, just as a few argumentative fools can ruin websites like this by trying to dominate and demand attention at any costs.

I spend more time outdoors than in my house, so I base my opinions upon extensive practical observations. I think gigging is by far our biggest problem, and no complicated rules or slot limits are going to change that. Length limits to grow more big bass just makes more big bass available to giggers to harvest under the cover of darkness.

The occasional fish hog anglers, most of whom just don’t know any better, come from everywhere, and I think I see more of them from the city than the country, but the problem with giggers, from what I can tell, is totally local, and I think it is a bigger threat to quality fishing than all the other problems combined, including as a whole, environmental issues.

I think this problem has become much worse during the past couple of years, and not just because bass have become money fish. That is a very valid supposition, and I’m sure a few law-abiding giggers have crossed the line because of cash rewards, and the outlaw giggers probably have increased their concentration upon bass, but I think the problem goes beyond that.

I’ve sensed a change in attitude among most giggers as well. I’ve never stereotyped them or considered them all to be bad. So I’ve talked to many and made friends with a few. Besides, the removal of some suckers can be a good thing.

Nevertheless, something seems to have pissed them off. The vast majority don’t seem to want to talk in a friendly manner any more. They seem cloaked in secrecy or resentment toward outsiders. Last year, a couple of times, giggers I ran into at remote accesses seemed to be stereotyping me as an unknown enemy. Their body language was aggressive. At one public accesses, with primitive campgrounds, instead of throwing their sucker carcases in the water as usual, they spread them on the banks to cook in the mid-day sun. Things like that.

I think it is time the MDC started using some of the same enforcement and sting methods they have used on deer and turkey poachers during past years to combat what illegal giggers are doing.

Ron, why don't you continue to make your condescending posts and call people names, while we all talk about the issues. I am glad your life has offered you the chance to spend more time outdoors than in your house, but not everyone has that opportunity.

MSA is highlighting stream access/tresspass laws in our upcoming newsletter. We've known about the access issues on upper Osage Fork (I believe that's who you're referrign to) for many years and some of our STL-based members have attempted both successfully and unsuccessfully to access that stretch. It comes down to a law enforcement/courts issue. His family's posting (I believe he's now deceased) of that stretch is both lawful and unlawful -- no need to get into that now.

Regarding MSA signs -- I handle that program for the MO Smallmouth Alliance as Conservation Chairman. I work with Matt Wier a lot and did not receive word from anyone that they were looking for signs to post last year. Crossed signals or dropped ball I'm not sure. I'd be glad to hook anyone up with signs, list of accesess, posting guidelines, etc. this year when we get our new signs approved by MDC and produced. I'll send out work on Ozark Anglers when the time comes.

Regarding ability of our streams to produce World Class SMB Angling -- true all streams' habitat is not created equal. However, if folks are able to catch 18-19 inch smallies in small creeks with very questionable habitat that are protected by remoteness and/or no angler harvest, then I'd surely bet that our larger streams with excellent habitat and food sources are capable of same. Rivers like the Niangua, Current, Gasconade, Meramec and many other others (Crooked Creek, Kings, etc.) have awesome habitat but suffer from a myraid of consumption-based issues many of which have been well-chronicled on this Forum.

I and many others on this site have fished a lot of places around North America chasing smallies. We find that -- where angler harvest is curtailed due to special regulations, difficult access, lack of SMB harvest tradition amongst locals, no gigging, reintroduce of river otters, etc etc -- average fish sizes are much higher than we have here in Ozarks. Many of these areas in upper Midwest and Canada have much shorter growing seasons than we do here so their 18-inch fish are just as old as ours (at least 10 years in most cases). Research has proven than natural mortality of adult SMB in streams is extremely low without angler harvest. No reason that a river is capable of producing gobs of 10-12 adult SMB but not gobs of 14-18 inch fish based on food and habitat. Problem is that too many of our fish over 12 inches are harvested by anglers under existing regulations and/or prevalence of catch and keep philosophy. So, MSA clearly does believe Missouri / Arkansas / Oklahoma can produce world class angling for stream smallies if protected and managed for quality rather than under the prevalent maximum sustained yield philosophy which allows the species to be self-sustaining but at expense of quality sizes.

That's what MSA is trying to change along with angler attitudes while addressing certain illegal practices like gigging of sport fish. We've not formally taken on the gigging issue since it is a tough one to tackle without alienating a large chunk of folks who enjoy this Ozarks tradition. We are starting to work with MDC on addressing abuses here and Al's recent experience may serve as a great catalyst to launch this initiative.

Regarding Illegal Gigging of MDC Tagged Smallies -- MDC did consider this as a risk of unwittingly promoting illegal gigging of fish worth money. Based on my conversation with them back in December on this issue, they'd not yet seen any sort of evidence of this -- yet. I'll circle back with them soon to see if any disturbing patterns in returns tags has resulted since then. Unbelievable!

Dan, I was only pointing out the lack of signage on the streams I fish after I saw that you said "all" accesses. The streams I fish most in the Ozarks are the Elk system, including Big Sugar and Little Sugar Creeks, the Spring system, including Shoal Creek. I have never seen one of your signs at any access on those streams. I thank you and the MSA for your mission, but membership in the state chapter isn't on my plate right now due to the six hour drive for meetings. I think you all have the right idea and motivation.

What do you quantify as world class smallmouth fishing? I am just curious.

[Smalliebigs]

"I, too, have fished a hell of a lot more before wife and kids, but you know what, I wouldn't trade them for anything, well, almost anything."

Andy, I feel your pain......my wings were clipped. I wouldn't trade my life with my wife and daughter for anything. Time is a very precious comodity for me now and I envy all on this forum who can just walk out the door and go hit a stream whenever they want.

[eric1978]

How do the current regulations favor the meat fisherman? I like that you can keep a couple fish if you so choose, but most smallmouth bass fishermen that I know will not keep smallmouth anyway. I will put this out here and say that if and when I catch a smallmouth over 20", I would likely keep the first one and put it on the wall. With that said, I would favor a 15/3 or 18/2 regulation statewide.

I say they favor the meat hunters because, as I stated before, their presence and behavior has significant impact upon our (C&R anglers) experiences, but our presence on the same rivers has little to no impact on their experiences. It would be fair if we both had to sacrifice. But they don't have to. They take what they want and leave the river less enjoyable for the rest of us. It would be like if the MO taxpayers bought the Mona Lisa, but then we decided to put it in someone's house instead of a museum for everyone to see. We conserve, they exploit. We put back, they take away.

I see no reason why someone shouldn't be able to keep a trophy. I wouldn't because I don't feel the need to hang animals on my wall, and I'd argue that a 20" fish isn't truly a trophy anyway, albeit a rare and exceptional catch for sure. Maybe a 22 incher would make me stop and consider it, since that fish is so near the end of its life anyway, but still, why? And replicas are so much better looking than the real thing anyway...not to mention a good photo...that's better than either. But sure, if some kids sticks a 20" smallmouth and Dad wants to get it mounted for him, that's fine, and that's why I'm okay with a slot including one over 20". IMO it's the 15-20" fish that make smallmouth fishing so much fun, with their heartstopping strikes, aerial leaps and bulldog fights. And with tighter regs to protect those sizes of fish, we would see a lot more reaching that 20" mark and beyond and offer more people the opportunity to hook into a fish of a lifetime.

[drew03cmc]

I say they favor the meat hunters because, as I stated before, their presence and behavior has significant impact upon our (C&R anglers) experiences, but our presence on the same rivers has little to no impact on their experiences. It would be fair if we both had to sacrifice. But they don't have to. They take what they want and leave the river less enjoyable for the rest of us. It would be like if the MO taxpayers bought the Mona Lisa, but then we decided to put it in someone's house instead of a museum for everyone to see. We conserve, they exploit. We put back, they take away.

I see no reason why someone shouldn't be able to keep a trophy. I wouldn't because I don't feel the need to hang animals on my wall, and I'd argue that a 20" fish isn't truly a trophy anyway, albeit a rare and exceptional catch for sure. Maybe a 22 incher would make me stop and consider it, since that fish is so near the end of its life anyway, but still, why? And replicas are so much better looking than the real thing anyway...not to mention a good photo...that's better than either. But sure, if some kids sticks a 20" smallmouth and Dad wants to get it mounted for him, that's fine, and that's why I'm okay with a slot including one over 20". IMO it's the 15-20" fish that make smallmouth fishing so much fun, with their heartstopping strikes, aerial leaps and bulldog fights. And with tighter regs to protect those sizes of fish, we would see a lot more reaching that 20" mark and beyond and offer more people the opportunity to hook into a fish of a lifetime.

I understand your point of view and I respect it. I would have no issues hanging a 20" fish on the wall, and I wouldn't even apologize for it either. I would, however, take good pictures so the taxidermist could get the colors just right and what not. I am pretty satisfied with our current regulations, however, there is always room for improvement. Catch and release is a pipe dream, and while it would satisfy most anglers, it would not benefit the bass population as well as having some bass kept.

[eric1978]

Catch and release...would not benefit the bass population as well as having some bass kept.

Well it sounds like the biologists don't really agree with that, but you're entitled to your opinion, right or wrong. Remember we're not talking about little infertile ponds and lakes with a finite amount of forage...we're talking rivers. I've never been on an Ozark river where a smorgasbord of prey wasn't present. And again, who was in charge of thinning the smallmouth populations a few thousand years ago? No one. The fish did fine, apparently. Maybe you feel like there's an overabundance of small fish compared to bigger fish because that's what you tend to catch due to overharvest. Just maybe.

[Smalliebigs]

Here is a pic of a replica in my office.......I put this fish back in the Big river below Mammoth in 2002, she was just over 21 inches. I think the guy did a sweet job, he is know as the Smallie mount guru on Pickwick Lake