Smallmouth Issues/msa Meeting

[Al Agnew]

I agree with Drew, nobody expects catch and release regulations. I think we are realistically looking at producing better fishing with more bigger fish, while still allowing some harvest. And I think you're wrong that smallmouth fishing in the Missouri Ozarks can't be quite a bit better than it is. I agree with you that the relatively small streams of the Ozarks will never match places like some of those you named when it comes to top end size or average size. (Although I have to say that when I talk to guys who fish the New River, they don't catch any more fish than I do here, nor do they catch more big ones, it's just that the biggest ones they catch are bigger than the biggest ones caught here.) And I agree with you that pressure is a major key...we've already established that. But your own experience on the trophy section of the Gasconade will tell you that regulations can make a big difference in the numbers of fish over whatever size limit you put on. In the case of the Gasconade, that limit is 18 inches and one fish, meaning that theoretically ALL the smallies under 18 inches are protected. Put on a regulation that protects fish up to a certain size and you get more fish that size. Drew and I agree that a slot limit would be a good way to protect fish up to a large size (the top of the slot) while allowing harvest of abundant small fish.

You're also somewhat right that this isn't a "conservation" issue, IF all you are considering is numbers of fish. There aren't many places in America where you can catch MORE smallmouth per day than you can in the Ozarks. But we believe the size structure of Ozark smallies can be greatly improved while still retaining the numbers AND allowing some harvest.

It's funny...I LIKE the fact that you never know how big the next fish you catch will be. It's really nice to go to somewhere like some fo those "destination" places where most of the fish you catch are over 18 inches, but I think I'd get bored with it if I fished there all the time...well, maybe not, but an 18 incher wouldn't be anything special after a while. What I think the Ozarks can be is a beautiful place with beautiful rivers where one can catch 50 fish a day of all sizes, with a good chance at a few of them being 18-21 inches. Right now, there are a couple of lightly pressured streams that fit that description...some years, until the meat fishermen discover them and wreck the fishing for bigger fish in a year or two, and then the meat fishermen move on because they can't catch fish there like they did before, and it takes five years or so for the stream to recover--that's what I've seen happen. But the point is that if it can happen on the few lightly pressured streams under current regs, it should be able to be developed in more streams under "better" regs.

[Al Agnew]

I agree with Watermen's statement that "Stream fishing is fun and that's all it needs to be". The Missouri Ozarks (and the MDC) provide plenty of different types of fishing for everyone. It's kinda weird seeing people questioning one of the best Conservation departments in the country.

I agree that not much is more fun than stream fishing. But it can be better, and thus MORE fun for everybody, without totally curtailing the sport for those who want to eat some fish. What you are saying in essence is that it's okay to accept mediocrity.

Not too many people are more supportive of MDC than I am. I've had too many friends within the Department over the years. And I doubt if any other state is better, and most are not nearly as good. But that doesn't mean they are infallible and that they can't do some things better.

[ozark trout fisher]

Missouri will never be a world class smallmouth fishery on the streams

Well I I do see what you're saying, but I respectfully disagree. The average size of smallmouth in lots of places I've fished has been larger than what we see in the Ozarks, in Michigan, the Adirondacks, really most every place I've ever fished for them. I know of rivers in those places where it's really pretty easy to take multiple fish in the 17-18 inch range in a half-way decent day of fishing with 20 inchers always a very real possibility. And none of them were even considered to be particularly high quality smallmouth streams for their region. I've yet find a place quite like that in the Ozarks, though that's not to say they don't exist. I don't really know whether it's because of regulations, fishing pressure, or habitat, or some other factor I'm not thinking of. It is almost certainly a combination of all these things.

But I'd still rather spend a day floating and fishing on the Big Piney or Gasconade than any of those streams up north where I've caught a lot more hogs. I'd naturally like to catch bigger smallmouth on our rivers, but I still can't say I've ever gotten done with a day of smallie fishing on any Ozark stream and been anything less than extremely happy. In the end, little of it has to do with fish size; that is just one small factor that doesn't really matter a great deal in the end. It has a lot more to do the bluffs, the blueish-green water, the isolation, and catching bass more or less non-stop from sunup to sundown. So I guess I'll stick with saying our smallmouth streams are world-class, and would be even if the they didn't have a single fish larger than 15 inches.

[hank franklin]

I know I am late to this thread but is there ANYONE here who thinks the current statewide 12 length six creel limit should stand? ANYONE?

It is quite frustrating to think we have documented angler support, excellent support from the MSA and others who have spent real time and energy on this, and yet we have a decades-old reg that does nothing to value the smallmouth bass in Missouri. Smallmouth bass apart from the SMAs are treated no different than largemouth and IMO are basically second-class citizens. Missouri has spent huge resources on trout and deer (good for them) but smallmouth have not reached that prized status. If I was Missouri Smallmouth Alliance leadership I might change strategies and try to get the smallmouth more valued by the state. For whatever reason it is not a valued species.

OTF and others, I agree a day on the water is its own prize. But that feeling comes with maturity and a lot of experience in the wilderness. A kid just learning to shoot wants to see deer, he'll learn the appreciation for the fine points later. A kid learning to fish streams wants to catch fish, and yr d-mn right the bigger the fish the bigger the impression. Why all this fighting and cussing on this issue is beyond me, WE WANT BETTER FISHING.

For MDC to sit on its hands and do nothing, or very little, to promote and protect smallmouth, is inexcusable. We need a 21st century regulation that reflects smallmouth as a prized species and the overwhelming support of anglers for more protective regs. I have NO IDEA frankly what the best reg may be, just that it needs to be MORE PROTECTIVE. Duh.

Missouri has deer hunting that is the envy of many many states. Trout fishing is very strong. My number one outdoor interest is float fishing the smallmouth streams, and truly this activity does not enjoy the MDC focus like the others do. That's what irritates me. If I had a few minutes with Robert Ziehmer I'd try to pound home this point. I guess this board for now is the best I can do.

[Mitch f]

There are two or three stream stretches which are capable of trophy designation right now. The upper Gasconade, the middle Big Piney and the James, above the lakes.

Keep thinking that

[drew03cmc]

Not sure where your going with this Mitch. Those are three that information is readily available for for anyone coming to Missouri from out of state that may or may not know anyone with information on other areas.

[Mitch f]

Not sure where your going with this Mitch. Those are three that information is readily available for for anyone coming to Missouri from out of state that may or may not know anyone with information on other areas.

Im just joking with you, I thought you were meaning that those three places were the best places in Missouri to catch the biggest fish.

[watermen]

I don't understand the problem with lowering the daily limit to 2-4 fish on streams. Nobody needs to keep more than this on a daily basis imo. Trout was reduced to 4 recently. Goggleye have a size limit, crappie have size and possession limits and their panfish not gamefish. I don't keep any bass and probably never will, but ridiculously complex regulations take the fun out of fishing for alot of folks. i don''t think reduced possession limits would be hard to defend or implement for the MDC. The fishery would improve somewhat, and everybody gains and loses a little. Sounds like a compromise of sorts. I've seen the same thing at meremac that cricket has at Bennet and it is always the usual suspects kaiser soce included. It is very hard to swallow, and not get angry about.

[eric1978]

....complex regulations take the fun out of fishing for alot of folks.

I have no interest in deer hunting so I pay no attention to it. The regs are extremely confusing and mysterious to someone who doesn't care, like me. But if I were interested, I'm assuming it would take about three minutes of research to learn the regs. If someone is interested in smallmouth fishing, it wouldn't be difficult to find the regs for that, either. And it's a sportsman's responsibility to learn the regs for whatever fish or game they seek. The internet makes it simple. If they don't have the internet, they can look in the booklet that's available wherever they get their license. And if they don't like the complexity of the regulations, they can stay home. That's their problem.

And to whether or not smallmouth fishing in the Ozarks could be world-class...how can you even venture a guess? We've never tried to establish world-class smallmouth fishing here, so your assumption that it's not possible is simply that...an assumption. My opinion is that it could absolutely be world-class, but it never will be if the regs allow EVERY fish to be harvested before they reach trophy status. There is ZERO protection for adult fish on the vast majority of Ozark streams. How on Earth could we know if it's capable of world-class fishing? One thing I'm sure of...our smallmouth streams reflect the current regulations...sustainable harvest - translation - consistent mediocrity.

[Smalliebigs]

And to whether or not smallmouth fishing in the Ozarks could be world-class...how can you even venture a guess? We've never tried to establish world-class smallmouth fishing here, so your assumption that it's not possible is simply that...an assumption. My opinion is that it could absolutely be world-class, but it never will be if the regs allow EVERY fish to be harvested before they reach trophy status. There is ZERO protection for adult fish on the vast majority of Ozark streams. How on Earth could we know if it's capable of world-class fishing? One thing I'm sure of...our smallmouth streams reflect the current regulations...sustainable harvest - translation - consistent mediocrity.

Eric, I couldn't agree more and this is just our opinion. Hearing the opinions of people who want to be able to keep smallies before they get big is funny to me. We will only know what it's like to allow the meat hunters rule in Missouri.....oh well.... I will still put them all back in the river to reproduce again, the good thing is Eric I think there are a lot of people like us out there throwing them back.......at least I hope