Lower Wire 4/6

[Bamboozle]

What I really appreciate about almost all of the above is that several members of the forum have been able to disagree (with me!) in a civil and reasoned fashion. Which I have not always found to be the case on this forum. So thanks so much to all of you for that.

That said I do think that what I said got a little skewed here.

I specifcally said that this should be a forum for advice and help. So a "newbie" coming on here should and would be able to get advice. I certainly didn't advocate getting rid of the forum. "Discretion" does not mean "silence." Discretion simply means keeping some things close to your vest.

Even within the proper definition of discretion there are some spirited disgreements with me which I accept even if I don't entirely agree with them.

I tend to see local use/abuse of the creek (worm containers) as an unfortunate constant.

Given that the local kids aren't going to go away or stop fishing with worms, I do believe that additional pressure from fly fishers is just that, additional pressure, no matter how ethical or well-intentioned they might be.

I also think there's a lot we could do to reduce the pressure that we as fly-fishers put on the resource. This gets back to a post that I think Pruett did a couple of weeks back:

1) Fish barbless

2) Make every effort not to take fish out of the water (if you must post photos take them of fish in net in water.)

and (my own addition)

3) Don't fish during the spawn

Finally I think there's a lot more we could do to actively enhance or improve the resource.

For instance, organizing and particpating in stream clean ups. As another example I recently wrote an (unanswered!) letter to Rapid Roberts asking them to consider switching from styrofoam to paper so that at least when cups get thrown into the creek they will dissolve. Not all may agree with the specifics of that request but the larger point is one of actively trying to help and or improve the resource.

Water quality can be improved enormously by planting trees along the riparian corridor. I think there's a good chance MDC will be doing this in the fall or spring on the new land they've bought across from the ball fields. Also a good chance they will want volunteers.

I also think it would be great to try to offer some sort of free fly-fishing clinic in Crane. Take those kids with the worms and teach them to fly fish. Get them to get a decent fish to take on a dry fly and they'll never go back.

Of course, that could increase the pressure on the resource, so perhaps I've beaten myself at my own argument. But I think we'd all agree that replacing a bait fisher with treble hooks with a fly-fisher would be a net gain for the creek.

All of this leads to the idea of organizing a not-for-profit Friends of Crane Creek to co-ordinate volunteer projects that are positive for the creek and to act as an organized advocate for the creek.

Any joiners?

[Daryk Campbell Sr]

I like the idea of using paper vs styrofoam worm containers. Maybe have a surcharge or deposit on styrofoam, so that people will actually reuse it vs throw it. Sorry for not commenting on the issue at hand. I am on both sides of the coin.

[Arofishing]

That said I do think that what I said got a little skewed here.

I specifcally said that this should be a forum for advice and help. So a "newbie" coming on here should and would be able to get advice. I certainly didn't advocate getting rid of the forum. "Discretion" does not mean "silence." Discretion simply means keeping some things close to your vest.

Even within the proper definition of discretion there are some spirited disgreements with me which I accept even if I don't entirely agree with them.

You are certainly right to point out that discretion does not (necessarily) mean silence. My intention was not to commit you to silience, but now that we are in the business of clarifying what we mean, as I think you'd acknowledge, there is no agreement (and we will not likely come to a statistically significant consensus, I'm confident) on what "discretion" consists of. For example, it may mean that we practice discretion only with respect to our most successful trips to Crane. Or it could mean that we only talk about it when necessary (whatever this might mean, i.e. "rubberlegs are not working at all right now!"). It could mean I tell you everything I did that worked without telling you exactly what spots I fished. Maybe it just comes to mean that we don't talk about Crane every single time we go. In sum, the vagueness of "discretion" is going to prove problematic when in the service of any slippery slope arguments we'd want to motivate in the direction of either a) not being discrete enough, or b ) being too discrete. So, given this, the concern I was raising is that discretion can be used to license something like complete silence -- and I'm glad that has not been the case. But you are certainly correct to suggest that it doesn't require it. We can still have an OAF subforum on Crane Creek (and for that I'm sorry I missed/ignored your claim that the forum ought to be here for advice and tips).

1) Fish barbless

2) Make every effort not to take fish out of the water (if you must post photos take them of fish in net in water.)

and (my own addition)

3) Don't fish during the spawn

I agree with these measures wholeheartedly, and I practice 1) and 2) (at least in part because of Pruett's suggestion some weeks ago, which serves to bolster the notion that OAF is doing Crane some good). Unfortunately I have transgressed 3), but not as a practical matter because I was, especially at the time, no threat to the fish -- I didn't catch any! I also was very cognizant of where I was walking. A problem with 3), as I see it, is that the spawn is a pretty loose time frame as well (but perhaps someone can disabuse me of this idea). It is roughly sometime between (possibly) late December and the middle of February. This is attested by all the posts we had during that time claiming to see no redds at all (even though they should be there). Given that the external conditions to the creek make it very difficult to fish during the warmer months of the year, that is a significant chunk of fruitful Crane fishing that we must miss out on, made all the more significant by the fact that we don't know if we even should be missing out on it (given that the beginning and ending of the spawn is difficult to identify). For what it is worth, I'm with you, we should err on the side of caution and not fish Crane during the spawn -- but I think we should also have good reasons for thinking we are affecting the spawn. I'll readily acknowledge that my motives were selfish in fishing during the spawn, but I'm not sure I was unjustified in doing so. Had I actually had a modicum of confidence in catching any fish - if I felt I was a legitimate threat to them, things would be different. The same if the spawn were more obvious. (Not to mention that this sort of tact is only going to have purchase with others such as ourselves who (I presume) think Crane is valuable for its own sake. If someone is entering Crane with the mindset that what makes it so great is that it benefits them - that what makes it great is that it is there for our use and enjoyment in catching fish - then they are likely to have fewer qualms about fishing during spawn, especially since that is a particularly fruitful time to fish).

Finally I think there's a lot more we could do to actively enhance or improve the resource.

For instance, organizing and particpating in stream clean ups. As another example I recently wrote an (unanswered!) letter to Rapid Roberts asking them to consider switching from styrofoam to paper so that at least when cups get thrown into the creek they will dissolve. Not all may agree with the specifics of that request but the larger point is one of actively trying to help and or improve the resource.

I think that's a great suggestion, a small thing that could do some good, but I have little hope for it being enacted. And more in response to Daryk, where I lived in Canada sustainability was (to a degree) mandatory in the respect that you paid extra for buying recyclable containers (to justify the cost of state run recycling bins outside of every dwelling, right near the trashcans), and in the respect that they instituted a ban on things like styrofoam. Something like that is never going to fly in MO, it will be up to the good will of Rapid Roberts to make a change, and well, we are probably exactly the sort of people they would *not* want to change for just to spite us.

As far as volunteering is concerned, I'd be certainly be willing, but it's going to have to be fairly soon or I won't be around (and for that very reason weekends are also booking up fast). And not to repeat myself, but I also think most of us are already participating in stream clean up (albeit not any great amount at a particular time). When I've gone fishing with others at Crane, or have seen people like Andrew fishing there, they are almost always doing things like picking up trash. Aaron on OAF is even much better about it than I am - he takes trashbags with him.

Finally, I don't think there is anything inherently contradictory in trying to motivate people to care about Crane (i.e. your fly fishing classes), even though that would likely increase fishing pressure. I'd just prefer that people have an antecedent interest in that sort of thing, that way we could be more selective about our potential audience (decreasing pressure). In that respect I see OAF as the perfect sort of medium for raising awareness and engendering respect and appreciation for Crane.

[ColdWaterFshr]

I am engendered to favor styrofoam worm containers. And the more them french canada dry folks hate 'em, the more I like em! How many wars they ever fought? Syrup and hockey is all they got. And besides, styrofoam keeps the nightcrawlers colder longer and therfore juicier. And I don't know what an antecedent is, unless that's the cheese soaked ants you can get at the trout parks that are coated in poppy-seed dressing. Yeah, very familiar with those, and they work well, too. Sometimes the wild trout of Crane want an ice-cold worm with a tip of antecedent on a #12 gold aberdeen (i.e. dead drifted). um-hmm.

I want to start a tournament to fish Crane. Look for an announcement on a separate page. Everyone is welcome. Canadians, non-sustainers, litterers, trash picker-uppers, profiteers, opium and fireworks dealers, . . . all are welcome. Everything will cancel out and we'll all probably get bit by snakes and the winning fish will be 9 inches. But he'll get a trophy and a t-shirt signed by . . .

Paul Dallas

[Arofishing]

LMAO. Burt, I'm beginning to wonder if you happen to write for Fish Itch. In any case, catching a 9 inch fish and getting bit by snakes sounds like fun. But I have to ask, who the hell is Paul Dallas?

[eric1978]

I'm with you, Bamboozle. In the world of celebrities and attention whores, they say any publicity is good publicity. And I think it's the opposite for the little creeks, whether they be inhabited by wild trout or not...any publicity is bad publicity. They don't need any more people fishing them.

When it comes to Crane specifically, I don't really have a dog in the race...it's about four hours from here and I've only fished it once. But when I do get down there again, the fewer people and worm containers and indies in the trees I see the better, the less spooky the fish are the better...and advertising doesn't help any of that. No, of course Crane is no secret. Neither is McDonalds, but they continue to saturate the airwaves with ads. Why? Because it reminds people that their nastiness is still there and still available for consumption. Advertising drives traffic.

People make the argument that those who are posting here on OAF aren't the ones we need to worry about, and that's probably true. But a lot of the lurkers we SHOULD worry about. And there are LOTS of lurkers on this forum. Look at the number of members who have logged in in the last 24 hours...90% of them are names you don't recognize. And that doesn't take into account all the guest lurkers who've never even signed up. I guarantee you Crane Creek has made at least a few enemies from guys discovering it reading threads just like this one. I, for one, had never heard of Crane Creek until I read about it here on OAF.

And I like your reports, Andrew, so please don't take it the wrong way. It's just something to consider, that there are a few places that probably shouldn't be talked about as much as they are.

[Wayne SW/MO]

who the hell is Paul Dallas?

You really shouldn't ask. If he should break off into a history from Asia to the Forsyth jail it will take days.

I'm with you, Bamboozle. In the world of celebrities and attention whores, they say any publicity is good publicity. And I think it's the opposite for the little creeks, whether they be inhabited by wild trout or not...any publicity is bad publicity. They don't need any more people fishing them.

Me too. The little trout creeks in Missouri are border line at best and can't stand a lot of pressure. Constant attention will only serve to degrade them, as if the environmental pressure wasn't enough.

[pruett417]

Me too. The little trout creeks in Missouri are border line at best and can't stand a lot of pressure. Constant attention will only serve to degrade them, as if the environmental pressure wasn't enough.

I'm still in favor of education, and if education mean more publicity, then so be it.........If we let these little streams fade to the background of topic and conversation, then we miss out on new stewards of preservation and conservation. As far as the lurkers that decide to give it a go, I've seen them, and I giggle to myself, even get a little annoyed, they don't stick around, and in common "beating a dead horse" fashion I will at this time make the comment that , "more than likely they won't be back". As far as playing it close to the vest, I completely agree....I may be one of the worst ones, more than likely when it comes down to it, I never really expose specific locations, maybe areas, but not many specific locations. And if I do, it's to those that I have formed relationships with. And the one thing that somewhat amuses me is that the belief that these fish will be easier to catch, if there is less pressure. There isn't anything at this point that will make these fish less wary and easier to catch, especially the ones that have been there for few years. I think we should petition the MDC for more snakes, maybe some sort of habitat enrichment, even the real nasty ones, that will keep them out

[Wayne SW/MO]

I'm still in favor of education, and if education mean more publicity, then so be it.........If we let these little streams fade to the background of topic and conversation, then we miss out on new stewards of preservation and conservation.

Once every thing is put into perspective all of that is meaningless. Crane Creek has been fished for decades and decades and preserved without constant attention on the internet. Everytime a new "Friend of Crane" comes along and makes a report more interest is generated and more pressure is brought to bear. The creek doesn't need more publicity, they need less use.

[pruett417]

Once every thing is put into perspective all of that is meaningless. Crane Creek has been fished for decades and decades and preserved without constant attention on the internet. Everytime a new "Friend of Crane" comes along and makes a report more interest is generated and more pressure is brought to bear. The creek doesn't need more publicity, they need less use.

Really? How is that meaningless? How is individuals that latch on to the ideals of preservation and conservation meaningless? To actually put things into so-called perspective you have to look at the big picture, I can remember in the past, encountering so many darn worm containers laying around that it was pitiful, especially on the upper end. I personally believe that the area is in far better condition than in years past, barring any type of water level issue arguments that bear no relation to the amount of use, and the fact that of Crane being a losing stream. You cannot tell me that the more people are educated about what's actually there would hurt the fishery, that to me is meaningless. The fact is the attention isn't going anywhere, and you're barking up the wrong tree, trying to stop it. Especially when those of us talking about it are responsible, law abiding anglers, and so called "Friends of Crane". Have you ever stopped to think that the presence of responsible anglers might in fact deter illegal practices on streams like Crane. If you, and others with the ideals of "out of sight, out of mind" would get your way, I have no doubt that this little stream would backslide in detrimental fashion. With all of that being said, I say "less use" may be beneficial, especially during the spawn, I have no problem with that, but then again you have to have bodies to enforce it.