Interesting Weather Record Set Today

[ness]

Yeah, I'd say it's a complex problem. Maybe I'm just over thinking it. Peace out.

[creekin bassnerd]

There aren't many nice ways to frame the moral failures on the denial side. "Ridiculous" will have to do for now.

Tim you are the man. thank you

[Wayne SW/MO]

Once again Tim, I realize that climate is changing and Justin I realize we need to change our ways to protect our environment, These are things i was probably aware of long before either of you, but the one fix will catch all that many subscribe to isn't cynical or ridiculous, but blind hope. We cut our emmisions and bam, the planet will settle down and we'll all live happily ever after.

Of course if it doesn't and we find that other factors not benificial to East Anglica grants or others fortunes are as important or more so we're screwed.

If you true belivers are right then we should be seeing some results, should we not? It's all about money. Fact or fiction, man made global warming is a gold mine.

If there was any seriousness we would be burning NG in our rides, it's not perfect, but a lot better than anything we have at present and in the scheme of things would be a quick cheap bandaid. The reason we can't is money, it's much cheaper and 10% of a dollar isn't even close to 10% of $3. Instead we burn coal to produce electricity to power a car part of the time instead of refined crude so we can play it up as progress and act as if there is no money involved. We give fortunes in misguided ventures and nothing say to boost water temperatures via the sun before it enters a water heater. We do nothing to pick away at the little things that add up, but instead do the feel good things that line pockets and drag on, never quite getting them perfected before the technology is out dated.

[Tim Smith]

Once again Tim, I realize that climate is changing and Justin I realize we need to change our ways to protect our environment, These are things i was probably aware of long before either of you, but the one fix will catch all that many subscribe to isn't cynical or ridiculous, but blind hope. We cut our emmisions and bam, the planet will settle down and we'll all live happily ever after.

Of course if it doesn't and we find that other factors not benificial to East Anglica grants or others fortunes are as important or more so we're screwed.

If you true belivers are right then we should be seeing some results, should we not? It's all about money. Fact or fiction, man made global warming is a gold mine.

If there was any seriousness we would be burning NG in our rides, it's not perfect, but a lot better than anything we have at present and in the scheme of things would be a quick cheap bandaid. The reason we can't is money, it's much cheaper and 10% of a dollar isn't even close to 10% of $3. Instead we burn coal to produce electricity to power a car part of the time instead of refined crude so we can play it up as progress and act as if there is no money involved. We give fortunes in misguided ventures and nothing say to boost water temperatures via the sun before it enters a water heater. We do nothing to pick away at the little things that add up, but instead do the feel good things that line pockets and drag on, never quite getting them perfected before the technology is out dated.

Uh huh. So you say the numbers are fudged yet you accept the science? How many sides of your mouth do you have, Wayne?

You drag up bogus objections you don't even believe and say it's all about money and none of this really matters and everyone's a prostitute....

...when the point that is beyond obvious is that nothing serious is going to get done as long as the cynical are bilking the ignorant. The political will to become truly energy independent will never emerge until that kind of garbage stops. You might know a thing or two about climate change but you're providing cover for the naive to keep their heads in the sand.

Romney was in Craig, Colorado last week (I was too, missed him by a day) talking about how requiring development of alternative energy was starving children and grandmothers (supported by the fossil fuel industry around Craig). Hmmm. I guess there are lots of starving people out there in the oil industry these days. Those record profits don't spread very far, huh?

Less carbon is a far better option than the likely disasters the other policy alternatives entail.

We may indeed be too late to stop this thing but if you were arguing in good conscience you'd stick to facts instead of playing the fool.

[Jerry Rapp]

someone posted a good graph back on page 2 showing temp rise and CO 2 for the last 120+ years. But in one of my earlier posts I mentioned the Chinese has temp data going back 500 years. And it shows that it is cyclic, up and down, over hundreds of years. We can debate forever car emissions vs. volcano eruptions, removal of vegetation, etc. I just try to look at all the available info and form my own conclusions.

[Wayne SW/MO]

Uh huh. So you say the numbers are fudged yet you accept the science? How many sides of your mouth do you have, Wayne?

Are you referring to me? I only have to look at a map and see the Great lakes to accept climate change. I'm told to belive it's my fault that it is changing faster.

...when the point that is beyond obvious is that nothing serious is going to get done as long as cynical are bilking the ignorant. You might know a thing or two about climate change but you're providing cover for the naive to keep their heads in the sand.

It appears to me it is the other way around Tim. Tell me what is being done for the average and below human on this earth Tim. Tell me how long do you think it will be before the avergae wage earner can afford the Volt? How long under present marketing before the average homeowner can afford solor panels or solar heating? How long before they can afford to bury their air returns for heating and cooling? Good grief we're trying to perfect technology, but not stopping to use it for fear it is outdated. The mentality that we cut down trees to build new housing additions and then name the streets after the trees is still alive and well.

Romney was in Craig, Colorado last week (I was too, missed him by a day) talking about how requiring development of alternative energy was starving children and grandmothers (supported by the fossil fuel industry around Craig). Hmmm. I guess there are lots of starving people out there in the oil industry these days. Those record profits don't spread very far, huh?

I didn't hear it and i won't comment out of context.

Less carbon is a far better option than the likely disasters the other policy alternatives entail.

Of course less carbon is a good thing, but it's not the focus, the focus is to sustain an industry that can't seem to quite get off the ground.

We may indeed be too late to stop this thing but if you were arguing in good conscience you'd stick to facts instead of playing the fool.

I'm asking where's the reasonable alternative. Am I a fool? You don't or at least haven't offered one positive step that has been taken to really involve the human race collectiivly in the effort. You talk of one politician, but ignore others who flaunt energy use while telling others they are a problem. I'm asking you in good conscience why is it all our efforts seem to be directed toward technologies that the avergae person can't afford?

The fools may be those who are living today the same way they were 10 years, 20 years ago, or longer and think that soon someone will knock on thier door and tell them they have the answer, because they know they're working on it. The idea that the problem can be solved from the top down instead of from the bottom up will leave us in the same position we are today and were 10 years ago. I

[Justin Spencer]

The only way we will ever clean ourselves up is for the goverment to require we do so (just like phasing out incandescent light bulbs). The same people discounting man made climate change are the same ones that resist any kind of govt. regulations on the subject and then wonder why we can't afford it. It will be expensive to stop our pollution problems, and even more expensive to fix them, capitalism does not encourage us to do this. I have done very little on a personal level to help the environment, sure I recycle (lots of cans get left here), and I try to do other small things that help a little bit. But I can't afford a volt, and although I hope to someday get a solar array, at this point I can't justify that cost. If the govt. gave major incentives to do so, or slowly required all to phase in a solar roof array, or require them on all new construction then we might see things moving in the right direction.

I am pretty liberal when it comes to the environment, and pretty conservative when it comes to budgets and the economy. Means I usually lose both ways.

[Wayne SW/MO]

The only way we will ever clean ourselves up is for the goverment to require we do so (just like phasing out incandescent light bulbs). The same people discounting man made climate change are the same ones that resist any kind of govt. regulations on the subject and then wonder why we can't afford it. It will be expensive to stop our pollution problems, and even more expensive to fix them, capitalism does not encourage us to do this. I have done very little on a personal level to help the environment, sure I recycle (lots of cans get left here), and I try to do other small things that help a little bit. But I can't afford a volt, and although I hope to someday get a solar array, at this point I can't justify that cost. If the govt. gave major incentives to do so, or slowly required all to phase in a solar roof array, or require them on all new construction then we might see things moving in the right direction.

I am pretty liberal when it comes to the environment, and pretty conservative when it comes to budgets and the economy. Means I usually lose both ways.

I guess one of the points I was trying to make Justin was that the government in my opinion should be helping you rather than just threatening you. We see more money than we can imagine going into coffers that not only mean nothing to us, they seldom reach us. Instead of making an all out effort to cut electricity through individual means, they're going to simply order more expensive alterations to the plants. Then when it hits the fan everyone will blame the power companies and the so called powers that be slip away.

[Jerry Rapp]

Justin, you really contradict yourself. Subsidy's means that the govt is spending money on something the public doesn't want, force feeding them if you will. And those subsidies expand the budget. Get it?

[Tim Smith]

someone posted a good graph back on page 2 showing temp rise and CO 2 for the last 120+ years. But in one of my earlier posts I mentioned the Chinese has temp data going back 500 years. And it shows that it is cyclic, up and down, over hundreds of years. We can debate forever car emissions vs. volcano eruptions, removal of vegetation, etc. I just try to look at all the available info and form my own conclusions.

Forehead slap.

How many denial arguments have I seen arguing that NONE of the current scientific data is any good because a handful of sites are too close to a building or had a parking lot built beside them or the instruments weren't adequate 100 years ago...

...yet this pre-scientific Chinese data...which even if it were accurate is merely regional at best...that somehow trumps a global data network plus data from glaciers, tree rings, lake, animal and plant ranges?

Hard to see how you're looking at the available data based on what you posted here.