Chief Grey Bear Posted December 17, 2013 Author Posted December 17, 2013 BTW Thanks for the email. It will be late before I get to look at as I am deep in the bowels of Oklahoma right now Goggle-Eye 1 Chief Grey Bear Living is dangerous to your health Owner Ozark Fishing Expeditions Co-Owner, Chief Executive Product Development Team Jerm Werm Executive Pro Staff Team Agnew Executive Pro Staff Paul Dallas Productions Executive Pro Staff Team Heddon, River Division Chief Primary Consultant Missouri Smallmouth Alliance Executive Vice President Ronnie Moore Outdoors
Terrierman Posted December 17, 2013 Posted December 17, 2013 You can sure tell it's winter. This thread on this board and one that's just plain ugly about sunglasses on another one. We got to have something to talk about I guess.
SpoonDog Posted December 17, 2013 Posted December 17, 2013 The only thing I've never understood is that we, the Ozarks, are stuck in the middle between the huge smallmouth of the Tennessee river chain, and the huge Northern strain. Granted we don't have the longer growing season as the southern fish, but come on, we should have a longer growing season than the Northern ones. But I know the answer is these fish are "perfect" for this habitat. But I sure as heck would love to sneak some other strains in our rivers! Eh...not sure how much genetic difference there is between Ozark fish and those north and east- and just because TN fish do well in TN, and MN fish do well on MN, doesn't mean TN or MN fish will do well in MO. Sorta like saying I can pluck a guy off the street in Baaahhhston or Miami and drop him on an Ozark gravel bar- he'll be fine, right? Besides, we have a pretty checkered history stocking new things because it's a quick, easy solution- and we know better than nature. Texas got bigger bass when they introduced the Florida strain, but I'd wager many of those trophy fish are belly up with the cold snap they've had- because no one bothered to think that maybe Florida fish are more susceptible to cool weather. IMO the genetics thing is oversold- and I'm not sure how many biologists would be willing to posit that the only reason northern and Tennessee smallmouth grow bigger is because of genetics. TN rivers are generally bigger, tons of habitat, and regulated by dams- they're kept a bit cooler as a result, and they don't experience flood, shifting gravel, and drought the way many of our Ozark streams do. And in both northern waters and Tennessee smallies aren't the apex predator they are in the Ozarks- stripers, muskies and other species fill that niche. Perhaps smallies need to get big fast in order to avoid predation- and when that selective pressure isn't present, they revert to slower growth rates. Dunno- but the point is there are all sorts of factors which go into making a big smallmouth- genetics is just one. Regarding neoshos- it's crucially important to keep in mind there is no singular, monolithic definition of a species. Or a subspecies. The answer to those questions depends as much on who's asking as the species' genetics or morphology. Two animals can look almost identical externally (bull trout and dolly varden) but have very divergent genetics- making them distinct species. Others are genetically indistinguishable (Snake River and Yellowstone Cutthroat), but look so different they're often regarded as separate subspecies. There is no hard-and-fast rule, and if you locked a bunch of academics and biologists in a room I promise there would be no consensus. My point is you fellas are getting your panties in a wad debating a question which, as near as I can tell, doesn't have an answer. Have fun!
Mitch f Posted December 17, 2013 Posted December 17, 2013 Eh...not sure how much genetic difference there is between Ozark fish and those north and east- and just because TN fish do well in TN, and MN fish do well on MN, doesn't mean TN or MN fish will do well in MO. Sorta like saying I can pluck a guy off the street in Baaahhhston or Miami and drop him on an Ozark gravel bar- he'll be fine, right? Besides, we have a pretty checkered history stocking new things because it's a quick, easy solution- and we know better than nature. Texas got bigger bass when they introduced the Florida strain, but I'd wager many of those trophy fish are belly up with the cold snap they've had- because no one bothered to think that maybe Florida fish are more susceptible to cool weather. Just having fun! I know it's not a good idea "Honor is a man's gift to himself" Rob Roy McGregor
Flysmallie Posted December 17, 2013 Posted December 17, 2013 I'd wager many of those trophy fish are belly up with the cold snap they've had- because no one bothered to think that maybe Florida fish are more susceptible to cool weather. And you would lose. Those Florida bass have been down there for a long time and are doing just fine. This isn't their first chance to experience some cold weather. Â Â
SpoonDog Posted December 17, 2013 Posted December 17, 2013 I did a quick look- while I wasn't able to find anything TX specific a bunch of states- TN, Mississippi, Arkansas, Oklahoma, even Missouri, I think- has experimented with the Florida strain. Here's some of Oklahoma's results: In Boomer Lake, a shallow, turbid Oklahoma reservoir receiving a heated effluent, Florida largemouth bass (Micropterus salmoides floridanus) grew significantly faster than northern largemouth bass (M. s. salmoides) during the first summer of life. Because Florida bass were smaller when stocked, however, the faster growth does not indicate a difference in growth potential. On the average, Florida and northern bass were the same size by the first fall, and the two subspecies grew at a similar rate over the next 1.5 years. Both subspecies suffered heavy initial mortality, presumably from stocking stress. After the first summer, the survival of northern bass was: winter 1976-77, 100%; summer 1977, 97%; and winter 1977-78, 45%. Seasonal survival rates of Florida bass over the same periods, 43, 45, and 58%, respectively, were independent of winter severity. Total survival of northern bass (10%) was significantly higher than that of Florida bass (1%) over 2 years. Florida bass offer no apparent management benefits in Boomer Lake. "Good" genes doesn't always translate into good growth, good survival, or good fishing.
Flysmallie Posted December 17, 2013 Posted December 17, 2013 I did a quick look- while I wasn't able to find anything TX specific a bunch of states- TN, Mississippi, Arkansas, Oklahoma, even Missouri, I think- has experimented with the Florida strain. Here's some of Oklahoma's results: In Boomer Lake, a shallow, turbid Oklahoma reservoir receiving a heated effluent, Florida largemouth bass (Micropterus salmoides floridanus) grew significantly faster than northern largemouth bass (M. s. salmoides) during the first summer of life. Because Florida bass were smaller when stocked, however, the faster growth does not indicate a difference in growth potential. On the average, Florida and northern bass were the same size by the first fall, and the two subspecies grew at a similar rate over the next 1.5 years. Both subspecies suffered heavy initial mortality, presumably from stocking stress. After the first summer, the survival of northern bass was: winter 1976-77, 100%; summer 1977, 97%; and winter 1977-78, 45%. Seasonal survival rates of Florida bass over the same periods, 43, 45, and 58%, respectively, were independent of winter severity. Total survival of northern bass (10%) was significantly higher than that of Florida bass (1%) over 2 years. Florida bass offer no apparent management benefits in Boomer Lake. "Good" genes doesn't always translate into good growth, good survival, or good fishing. Search for Lake Fork, TX. Â Â
SpoonDog Posted December 17, 2013 Posted December 17, 2013 Couldn't find anything specifically on Lake Fork- I did find some info on Alabama's mixed success with them. I was able to find a paper which stated Texas' broodstock croaked in the late 70's due to a severe winter. I'd hazard a guess that if they die in the hatcheries because it's too cold, they'll die in the reservoirs, too. Maybe this link will work?
Flysmallie Posted December 17, 2013 Posted December 17, 2013 Lake Fork is a trophy bass lake in Texas that has had Florida bass in it since it opened. But whatever, believe what you will. Â Â
Chief Grey Bear Posted December 18, 2013 Author Posted December 18, 2013 Um...Notice the reference they use for the 2 subspecies of smallmouth is Bailey and Hubbs 1940??? The other reference they use is the Stark and Echelle article posted earlier that describes three clades, but that article also invalidates the neosho as a valid sub species to place them in one of those clades (which are not genetically distinct on a sub species level). No published research from either of the presenters in that podcast either. Um... if you listen, one of the very first things she states is that she is referencing previous studies to lay the ground work for her presentation. Which by the way was at the Black Bass Symposium 2013. Goggle-Eye 1 Chief Grey Bear Living is dangerous to your health Owner Ozark Fishing Expeditions Co-Owner, Chief Executive Product Development Team Jerm Werm Executive Pro Staff Team Agnew Executive Pro Staff Paul Dallas Productions Executive Pro Staff Team Heddon, River Division Chief Primary Consultant Missouri Smallmouth Alliance Executive Vice President Ronnie Moore Outdoors
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