The Oregon Standoff

[SpoonDog]

Guys, I can't stress enough the "FBI poses as militia and assaults locals"  story is bogus.   Even Briels has come out and said he didn't actually say what these "news" outlets attributed to him.  I'm glad you guys don't blindly accept the government's position, let's apply the same standard to some dumb lies, false accusations, and shoddy reporting you find on the internet. 

Murder, assault, and kidnapping are three crimes, they're not somehow more legally valid than any other law on the book.   By my count breaking and entering, carrying weapons in federal buildings, squatting on public property, damaging public property, and sedition are all crimes, and US citizens are subject to the laws of this country, whether they're against murder or anything else.

Law enforcement doesn't want another Waco or Ruby Ridge, and this isn't Die Hard.  They're not gonna swarm the place and start pointing guns at folks because they know it'd go over like a lead balloon, it'd threaten to martyr these zealots and embolden others.  But I can tell you from my own personal experience I've never been arrested and it doesn't mean I've never committed a crime.  These guys aren't in handcuffs, it doesn't mean they're innocent.  

 

Owning a sliver of the pie is totally different from owning the entire pie, and the fact these guys are stakeholders in a federal government doesn't give them the authority to commandeer public property and restrict access based on political philosophy.  They simply do not have that right- they're fighting for rights they don't have, they're fighting for rights I suspect they don't really believe in.  If I were the rancher who's grazing lease had been torched by some third party, I'd consider that harm.  If I were some current leaseholder who couldn't access the refuge, I'd consider that harm.  If I were the locals who've begged these folks to leave (because, you know, they're all about local control), I'd consider that harm. 

The feds are providing local ranchers grazing land at a fraction of the cost they'll find on the private market.  The government isn't putting ranchers out of business- many ranchers couldn't afford to graze livestock if it weren't for federal lands.  They pay pennies on the dollar, you and I and the rest of the American taxpayers subsidize their business.  Pretty raw deal, huh?  Maybe it would be better in the private sector, sold off to the highest bidder, who either charges market price for grazing rights or doesn't allow grazing at all.  It'd be a neat experiment, seeing how well a ranching community does without ranches. 

 

Aside from grazing they're managing an important wildlife area for the benefit of sportsmen, they're protecting water quality for irrigators and downstream users, they're protecting sensitive natural and cultural areas for the Paiute, they're providing access for birders and other folks.  What is it the militia's bringing to the table, aside from tearing down fences and trampling over the land of private property owners?  Mending fences?  Serving meals at the local old folks home?  Helping with 4H projects?  What exactly is it they're doing to benefit the community?

 

 

[Brian Jones]

1 hour ago, Al Agnew said:

And here's the thing...taken separately, all those things they have done are not a big deal.  But put them all together and you have armed occupiers of public property, calling for, among other things, land that belongs to all of us and which all of us have a right to use to be turned over to local interests.  

All this talk of local control of governmental lands reminds me of all the nonsense regarding the regulation changes on the Ozark National Scenic Riverways from a couple of summers ago and how most on this very site thought that it was a bad idea for control of the OSNR to be taken away from the NPS and back to local governments/interests.  

I hate big government as much as the next guy but one thing man has proven over time is that we are not very good at policing ourselves.  

[SpoonDog]

It's a joke.  Western states can't afford their own firefighting costs, and that's just one line on a land management budget.  Of all the nutty stuff these folks say they believe, the idea the State of Oregon is going to purchase or effectively oversee an area the size of Mississippi might be the craziest. 

[fishinwrench]

Whatever.   I still say if they are breaking laws then go arrest them, otherwise leave them the hell alone.    It sure looks to me like what they were doing was perfectly legal but the feds just "didn't like it".  Too bad.   There is plenty of stuff the fed does (or will do) on that land (and others land) that the public doesn't like too I bet.

The feds going in incognito to try and escalate things so they have a more valid reason to start thumping heads and bossing people around is chickenshit and typical of the way our gov. handles things. 

Again, if removing old broken down fences or whatever is a violation of law then go arrest the guys that did it.   If occupying the building is illegal....go arrest them.    

Let me ask you something.... If a federal agent is undercover and threatens you and you end up killing him do you get arrested for shooting a regular person or for shooting a federal agent ?  You didn't know he was a federal agent, you just thought he was a friggin' lunatic because he was certainly acting like one.

They aren't there dressed like federal agents, and it's a fair bet that they aren't conducting themselves like fed agents either. They are allowed to lie and do other bad stuff IF it helps their case.  

[Mark]

See, there you have it.  Do I believe fishinwrench and FBI agents were involved in deceptive practices? Or believe SpoonDog and it was all a hoax? You never know what to believe on the internet.

[fishinwrench]

8 minutes ago, Mark said:

See, there you have it.  Do I believe fishinwrench and FBI agents were involved in deceptive practices? Or believe SpoonDog and it was all a hoax? You never know what to believe on the internet.

Yeah who knows.  But the fact that all this unlawful crap is being reported but NOBODY is getting arrested/charged kinda makes me wonder who's right and who's wrong.    What reason could the fed or local law have to wait to arrest someone ?    Go on and get'er done!

It HAS BEEN officially reported that locals have been harassed.   Well then go arrest the ones doing it UNLESS of course the ones doing it have immunity like an FBI agent would.  

[MOPanfisher]

Are the Bundy clan breaking law, yes they are no question about it.  Does the State of Oregon and or the FBI have the authority and or ability to take them down, sure they do.  Is it worth the cost in lives and material to force their hand as opposed to letting them stew in their own juices for a while to see if they collapse on their own yes it is.  If the FBI goes in hard like Waco or Ruby Ridge and essentially kills everyone who even appears to resist or are just present, how does that play out in the long run, complete win for the Bundy Clan cause, and a major black eye to the FBI.  I would be my last dollar that the FBI has undercover agents in the area, hell I would be ashamed of them if they didn't, but I simply don't believe that they are intentionally harassing locals to hope they dislike the bundy clan more.  The FBI has nothing to gain and everything to lose by doing that, the locals already want them gone, never having wanted them to start with.  you can say a lot of things about the FBI, (jack booted thugs, high handed, overly arrogant etc. etc.) but one thing they aren't is stupid.  The absolute last thing any federal agency wants is t see it all end in a blaze of glory.

[fishinwrench]

Oh I know they're not stupid.   The fact that the majority blindly follow and support everything they do and say is proof of that.   The folks who question their words and actions, and remain somewhat bias against them are equally not stupid.

 

If the people in the closest towns want/need them gone, and they are breaking laws, then not arresting and removing them immediately is a disservice to the communities.

[SpoonDog]

Oh you don't have to take my word for it, I posted the guy's press conference and you free-thinkin' fellers are more than welcome to take a look and tell me at what time he says he found undercover agents posing as militia and harassing locals.  He never says it.  Now, if someone told me I said something I didn't, I'd think they were very silly people.  If they insisted I said something in a video-taped press conference which is provably not there, I'd say they're nuts.  If you guys wanna anoint yourselves as the arbiters of Truth and the ones who know what's really going on here, you'll have to develop some capacity to  separate reality from your overactive imagination.  

 

Seriously, if the Bundy militia is so clearly in the right, why are you guys so hesitant to, you know.  Use facts?

 

 

Either sedition is legal or illegal- it isn't subjective and it isn't a matter of opinion. The fact is, sedition is illegal.  These guys don't recognize the authority of the US government (among other things), which means they've committed a crime.  No one cares whether you believe it's a crime, it is.   No one cares if you think it's a serious crime, it's a crime.  No one cares what you'd do in law enforcement's position, and just because no one's in handcuffs doesn't change the fact crimes have been committed.  None of your personal opinions change the facts, and if people aren't jumping to support your position it isn't because they're blind or complicit in some far-reaching government conspiracy- it's because you're wrong, and that isn't my personal opinion. If you guys think the Bundy militia shouldn't be held accountable for their actions because they've done nothing wrong you either haven't been paying attention or you don't understand how the world around you works.

[fishinwrench]

So you are saying that they WILL be arrested, just not today?    OK I'll wait for it.