nutritional forage for Bass (and other minnow eating fish)

[MoCarp]

better bring your A game, or even a dink common will JACK-YOU -UP....

 

 

[MOPanfisher]

I don't think anyone is saying carp are not fun to catch and are even worth as an intended quarry.  What Spoondog and others have tried to explain that the observations, stories, vidoes, postulations, philosophies, observances and whatever else it is are all fine and good, however it is simply not a scientific study.  One with parameters, protocols that are followed etc. in order to make the data useable.  Sort of why the samples nets or electro shocking is always done in the same locations, so there is a basis for comparison to previous data.  Lakes that are more nutritious are going to grow big fish faster than less nutrient rich fish, that means both Carp and LMB if all the other needs are met.  Questions like what eats baby carp are valid questuins, likely every predator in the water will happily eat them if available.  Might make good fodder for a doctoral study for a college student.  Simply put the reasons for the studies not having been done before is that nobody cared, doesn't make it right just a fact.  Using you carp to feed fish in a hatchery is a good idea, again good fodder for a graduate study.  

[MoCarp]

16 hours ago, MOPanfisher said:

I don't think anyone is saying carp are not fun to catch and are even worth as an intended quarry.  What Spoondog and others have tried to explain that the observations, stories, vidoes, postulations, philosophies, observances and whatever else it is are all fine and good, however it is simply not a scientific study.  

I agree, my point is that its study worthy, all good abstracts start with quality assumption gleaned from anecdotal evidence, I am not some goober pulling caca out of thin air, I spent  several years in university learning methodology...

 

16 hours ago, MOPanfisher said:

Lakes that are more nutritious are going to grow big fish faster than less nutrient rich fish, that means both Carp and LMB if all the other needs are met.  Questions like what eats baby carp are valid questuins, likely every predator in the water will happily eat them if available.  Might make good fodder for a doctoral study for a college student.  Simply put the reasons for the studies not having been done before is that nobody cared, doesn't make it right just a fact.  Using you carp to feed fish in a hatchery is a good idea, again good fodder for a graduate study.  

I agree....I don't just fish for carp....and do not want a trophy carp pond at the expense of great "other" fishing.....having both is a requirement to produce Trophy commons....its like trying to convince a flat farther the earth is round..technically a spherical egg/ovoid.....If I get salty it because assumptions can get used to effect policy....

[MOPanfisher]

2 hours ago, MoCarp said:

..If I get salty it because assumptions can get used to effect policy....

Probably not in missouri, the State anymore won't act to make changes in regulation unless there is some scientific data behind it.  Good bad or indifferent.

 

  I actually think I understand what you are trying to say but you keep going back to comparisons that are not scientifically validated  Carp are not evil, carp fishing is fun, carp fishing is a growing sport, loss of too many of any stable population is a bad thing.  Effect of carp and yoy carp on populations of predatory fish is something worthy of study.  So how close am I ?

[tjm]

We don't need to have more regulations, we don't need to fund a study of carp; let the grad students get grants and do thesis studies. Buffalo ain't carp,  buffalo are native, buffalo and redhorse may be worthy of tax dollars spent on studies.  Our crawdads definitely deserve money/study/fixing more and sooner than invasives of any color. Are some species of crawdads already lost?   Are many of them endangered? Probably.

What they do in germany or Japan or Minnesota does not have any application or  bearing on what is good in Ozark waters.

Carp rooting the bottom of high gradient streams may well be the primary factor in loss of crustaceans and the movement of gravel into the deep 'holes'. 

[tjm]

Seriously, do some real and reasoned presentation illustrating your goals and a fully reasoned and supported defense of your position and take it to the universities that pass out those Biology Masters degrees and sell it to a couple of them.

[MoCarp]

2 hours ago, MOPanfisher said:

Probably not in missouri, the State anymore won't act to make changes in regulation unless there is some scientific data behind it.  Good bad or indifferent.

Effect of carp and yoy carp on populations of predatory fish is something worthy of study.  So how close am I ?

I agree scientific studies need to be done....but as far as changes in Regulations, thats what many said about Texas, "never happen"..yet here we are over a decade with trophy regulations in place in Lady Bird Johnson Lake, and the most restrictive limits ever will be in Connecticut for 2018, many many others in play in several states

http://www.ct.gov/Deep/cwp/view.asp?a=2696&q=580166&deepNav_GID=1630 <--ever see THAT on a state F & W before?

https://tpwd.texas.gov/fishboat/fish/action/fishregs2.php?water=0737  <--Texas Regulations

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVKqYrDTULk&t=200s <--Texas Parks and Wildlife [Official] Promotion of Buffalo & Common Carp Fishing in lake Fork Texas

https://www.facebook.com/PaFishandBoat/photos/pcb.1709032149167427/1709031209167521/?type=3&theater <--Pennsylvania Fish and Boat Commission [Official]

 

 

1 hour ago, tjm said:

We don't need to have more regulations, we don't need to fund a study of carp; let the grad students get grants and do thesis studies. Buffalo ain't carp,  buffalo are native, buffalo and redhorse may be worthy of tax dollars spent on studies.

I disagree a few waters here in the Ozark's could benefit of a Texas like regulation of say one fish over 30" per day on common carp and buffalo

 

1 hour ago, tjm said:

Buffalo ain't carp,  buffalo are native, buffalo and redhorse may be worthy of tax dollars spent on studies. 

Yet buffalo are dumpsterd by the 1000's ...

 

1 hour ago, tjm said:

Our crawdads definitely deserve money/study/fixing more and sooner than invasives of any color. Are some species of crawdads already lost?   Are many of them endangered? Probably.

I agree, the tiny lobsters need more study, yet they can't generate a few billion dollars each year fishing for them, perhaps thats why they go to wanting in interested parties to studies

 

1 hour ago, tjm said:

What they do in germany or Japan or Minnesota does not have any application or  bearing on what is good in Ozark waters.

Perhaps, but "they" spend Billions on angling for common carp, the potential of which is barley realized here in the USA..if it was sniff as popular here as there... it would be 100s of billions not the pip squeak 10 billion there

 

1 hour ago, tjm said:

Carp rooting the bottom of high gradient streams may well be the primary factor in loss of crustaceans and the movement of gravel into the deep 'holes'. 

No-one would ever blame carp for moving gravel...Buffalo and all sorts of native suckers and chubs feed the same way common carp do...ironically commons don't seem to compete as well in Ozark like streams, only place I ever saw very many is where elk river meets Grand downstream from #10 bridge...ironically I have seen more Crawfish in that stretch than in indian and big sugar

 

1 hour ago, tjm said:

Seriously, do some real and reasoned presentation illustrating your goals and a fully reasoned and supported defense of your position and take it to the universities that pass out those Biology Masters degrees and sell it to a couple of them.

perhaps I have been toying with the Idea to return to University too complete and further my studies, but @ 57 thats a lot of work for an old man...perhaps helping some up and coming grad student that needs funding for a thesis at least a "pro carp" one.....Nash, Korda, Kryston, E.S.P and other UK tackle Giants might see it as a down payment on future billions

Did you know one of the most expensive Daiwa reels sold is for Carp? or that Daiwa sold Bivvies?

[tjm]

hm. I don't recall ever seeing any native fish muddy up a flowing stream by rooting and I have seen carp do that many times.

Those dumpster pictures are in Mo? I think our wanton waste regulation would prevent that, maybe not.

[tjm]

11 minutes ago, MoCarp said:

Yes sir, ...Nash, Korda, Kryston, E.S.P and others we are talking a multi billion dollar industry here, Did you know one of the most expensive Daiwa reels sold is for Carp?

nope had no idea, seriously don't care, a couple of Medalist is all the reel I have ever needed.

When it comes to talking about the money in recreational fishing, tournament fishing and such like I am opposed to it all. So, you instantly lose my support for any of it. Though I do release most all  catch, I truly believe in consumptive use. If that mulit dollar business was in sales of fish flesh, I might be on board. We could get rich exporting good carp bait to those places that already have the sort of fishing that you favor, and still have our waters as is .

Texas is big enough to hold all the trophy carp that are needed in the entire universe.  Carp are food, should leave it at that.

Carp on flies fishermen indicate that crawdads are one of their favorite foods. Til you get some one at masters/doctorate level to study crawdads and carp devastation of them I will blame carp for the loss of my local mudbugs, we had 10# carp in this creek for 20-30 years, may still have, idk. Last one I saw caught (12#+) was on a crawdad about 15 years ago but I haven't fished it much since then to know.

[MoCarp]

11 hours ago, tjm said:

 I don't recall ever seeing any native fish muddy up a flowing stream by rooting and I have seen carp do that many times.

So you are saying killing all the carp in the Missouri river will make it run clear? buffalo feed the same ways...turbidity is more of a function of substrate composition...I am working on a quantifiable report on boat wake caused turbidity and erosion 

11 hours ago, tjm said:

hm. I don't recall ever seeing any native fish muddy up a flowing stream by rooting and I have seen carp do that many times.

Those dumpster pictures are in Mo? I think our wanton waste regulation would prevent that, maybe not.

I can post hundreds..below is what you can expect....so you can imagine how may dumpsters you would need with 50 boats..much less 900

let me ask, would you eat any fish that layed in the bottom of a boat all night? as far as the below pic and thread on a Bfing site..

 

I thought the limit on buffs was 20...prob more than one guy shooting though..ether way..never gets enforced..just like shoot and release...

 

http://bow.fishingcountry.com/forums/showthread.php?68218-Finally-got-to-break-in-the-Airboat!-Hell-of-a-night!