Devan S.

You completely dodged the question. I could have swore I made myself very clear what I was looking for. You spew random facts, compare apples to chickens, compare blatantly illegal activities to regulated legal activities and then wont even pin down your own opinion when asked. You twist the question to fit your narrative. I'm not asking about the size they target or anything like that. I am asking you in your opinion compared to rod/reel fishermen do they have any impact when done legally within the guidelines set forth by AGFC.

Let's run this back a bit. YOU said you probably wouldn't have commented if it weren't for the fact it was shot vs. caught by rod/reel. Therefore your really not that upset that he removed the largest of the species or you would be beating that drum on every catch and keep post too. Yet you say you want protection on larger fish so they can reproduce(genetics are in place from basically conception so provided a fish is allowed to reach mature age they technically are passing on those genes but when is enough? After that fish has passed its peak reproductive stage and then the turtles get it?). You also appear by your own assessments want the lake to be full of big fish right? Your not here though commenting on every post of every decent fish that gets caught and kept though which tells me you like the idea but it really doesn't pump you up. You clearly dislike bow fishing we know that. We know the reason why and I kind of feel bad that those people take those fish and shoot tons of them and dump them on the bank. That is also happening on a scale incredibly larger than the spear fishing in my opinion. One is regulated tighter than rod and reel and the other is a proverbial free for all. Answer this in the simplest form you possibly can(its very specific forget your gator gar, oceanic spearfishing reports, anecdotal evidence from bygone years, all the claims about illegal activities, just the simplest meat/potatoes answer you can supply): In your opinion, does spear fishing legally under the current AGFC guidelines have any significant impact on the fishing compared to rod and reel fisherman?

You wouldn't especially if your talking an 18" walleye to say a 24" walleye it would be a guess and check and pay the price if your wrong. However then he could come on here and cry and moan about those dang stabbers and not following the rules of the law just like those dang bow fisherman shooting and stabbing all those walleye and musky.

Change your first sentence to all methods and you probably have 99% agreement. But wait do we let those fish at the end of their life just die and rot and provide for no consumption? Ah heck turtles and buzzards gotta eat. Once again you liken spearfishing to shooting blinded game at night and turkeys sleep on a roost, both of which are huge stretches. I believe somewhere in your history you hunted turkeys and probably deer. Did you call while they were on roost and then close the distance so you could be close when they came down. Is there much difference? So your not shooting them in bed but getting them between there and the kitchen. You mean you hunt deer and you strategically place your stand in a funnel between a bedding area and food source? Which is completely fair chase and suddenly its okay. Awesome totally ethical in your mind but from the mind of someone that doesn't do it that line between fair chase and not fair chase isn't as clear or as big as even you think it is. When the ball is rolled off the proverbial hill where does it stop? We already have people out here calling for the complete end of fishing because they feel pain. I've already told you the exact spot to go for the opportunity at large walleye. Its not a huge secret. Head up-river at dusk and look for the boats. However you know those spots just like I do and every other person worth a dang at using the internet. We're past the age unfortunately of figuring it out on your own or even having secrets passed down. Your right a large number of people fish for fun. That's exactly why there are literal hundreds of tournaments on these lakes every year. There's also a lot of people catching fish to keep. If you don't think its happening your wrong. That's why most boat ramps are jam packed full in the spring in search of crappie, whites, and walleye. Once again, you draw a comparison to a commercial fishery in Atlantic Salmon. Guess what were already limited to a couple fish. I can only catch 4 walleye or shoot 2. I can only catch 5-6 Bass. I can only catch 4 trout. We already there now outside of a few species. Back in your day you could keep how many? I remember my great grandpa use to keep everything they caught limits of 6-8 lb bass, boats full of catfish, truckloads of white bass, world record jack salmon. They used whatever means necessary gig, nets, rods/reels, traps, hands, you name it they used it. Then they took away nets, restricted gigging, no more traps, couldn't hand fish and fishing is still declining to this day based on your claims. Do I think opening back up those methods are a good idea NO but you continue to restrict access in the name of improving fishing but thus far we haven't seen that significant improvement so lets get rid of spearfishing. If that doesn't work lets move to live bait, then onto 1 per day limit. If that doesn't work then where to? Do I agree we are likely to see radical changes...absolutely. My concern isn't that your going to get your wish that people cant stab fish be it from a boat or however you want it. It's that where do you stop? Are you willing to give up all fishing? Are you willing to give up all hunting? Unfortunately you claim YOUR contingency of those that want stabbers limited and changes enacted is growing. The fact of the matter is that the contingency of people in demographics much younger than you is growing far faster and has an incredibly more restrictive overall view on ALL of these activities even the ones you deem "fair" Frankly, I could care less if MDC/AGFC or every state agency said I couldn't bow fish, spear fish, and gig. What I do care about is those agencies saying I can't fish or can't hunt. While you are older than me, you may never see that day I unfortunately could and my children likely will.

I did my certification at Beaver as well. I know diving off the scuba park there are tons of little sun fish that follow you around. People feed them so their looking for a meal and they are relatively easy to catch by hand. We did see a couple small mouth pretty small maybe 10". In the water, they are almost the same color as the bottom with all the silt add in you only have 5-7 feet of what I would call true visibility(seeing items that are roughly the same color not seeing white against a dark background) and they are pretty hard to see they certainly didn't hang around like the sunfish. We did the clicking the pebbles together and it got the sunfish going pretty good. I could have basically sat in 20' of water with a bag of Doritos, bread, or hot dogs and fed sunfish all day. We did have a small school of whites swim by really fast. They are up in the water column silver colored and easier to see but they were moving fast.

FWIW-I don't spearfish but rec dive and know that visibility in all 3 lakes is poor to terrible compared to oceanic diving. I know that outside of the 3" panfish that are fed at popular sites most fish are scared of scuba. I also know as aarchdale said its just too much work. I can pop open a beer troll all day and probably end up with the same eater fish as if I spent all day working my tail off diving. If I wanted a trophy I will wait until spring and run up roaring river/kings river and fish with chubs and catch that 14 lber along with the 10 other boats and bank fisherman that are there every night at dusk doing the same thing. Sure some guys are great at it but there's guys out there Rod and Reel fishing doing the same(they can keep 2x as many too) The thought that one rouge spearfishermen is shooting all those record walleye is outlandish. The thought that we should not allow spearfishing due to it even worse. If that's the case then lets get rid of bass tournaments because there's bad apples in those circuits. Cheating and lying not to mention all the fish they relocate. Let's not allow guides because there out there making money on a public fishery. Let's not allow wade fishing or creek fishing because people leave trash or get sloppy drunk and cause a ruckus on gravel bars. Get rid of cat fishermen. Trot lines and jug lines litter the shores and heck its too easy. No more keeping fish at all because well I want to go back to catching record size everything. Artificial lures only because everything else is too easy. Actually lets just completely do away with public access because there's a very small sub-sect of people that do bad thing. Better in fact we do away with the dams we can get rid of those pesky wake boats and the pleasure crowd. It will get rid of all those dock owners too. They don't own that water watch it go right down the Mississippi when those dams are gone. Forget deer hunting with rifles/compound bows. Fair chase em like the original Native Americans did with a spear. If you cant run all day to keep up with a whitetail to bad go buy your food. Get rid of trapping its not humane. Coyotes are the same family as my house dog. Why do we continue to shoot them? Man's best friend. Outlaw Coyote hunting. Where do we stop? Do you have to own a lake to have access? Have land to be able to hunt? We live in the midwest of what I believe is the greatest country in the world. In an area, where I can drive 2 hours and have more hunting/fishing opportunities than in my opinion anywhere in this country outside maybe Alaska. Maybe I'm short sighted and I haven't been everywhere but I grew up here and had every opportunity to leave and I didn't. MDC and AGFC do from time to time screw up and miss something. Could they be better? Sure everyone could but my idea of better and MoCarp's idea of better are different so the question remains how do they balance that difference? The fact still remains that in our local lakes, I can go catch a lunch and still have an opportunity at a record sized fish be it trout, walleye, striper, or long ear sunfish. You can think those days are long gone but the fact remains people catch trophy sized fish every year from these lakes and they largely go unreported. Heck there's been half a dozen claims in 2 threads on sunfish of people that have caught a record. I hope they never report them. These lakes cant stand being inundated with all those trophy sun fishermen. Would I like to have a lake full of double digit walleye heck yeah I would but it just doesn't happen. Sure 1988 was great I guess, I wasn't alive but your parents probably said 1945 was great. Their parents probably said 1895 was great and on and on. It seems we never revert back to the old ways that were supposedly so great. If you want to talk about sensible limits on bow fishing which is what you're really, really, really, upset about then go for it. Frankly you would probably find most people here, Bow fishermen included, want something like that why? At the end of the day, EVERYONE wants to enjoy the outdoors and the activities we love and make sure they are sustainable for future generations. However doomsday, the worlds ending, look at all the fishing decimation going on in other places spam, doesn't as Dale Carnegie would say win friends and influence people. At least not, the masses of people on this board.

You want ALL angling to get better but generally speaking not ALL user groups want to see the regulations in place to grow the numbers you posted above. Would regulating to 5# rainbows lead to a drop in the numbers of people that can take home their 4 fish limit for supper on Taneycomo? I agree that is your goal and many other individuals goals but remember you have to appease close to all user groups. Maybe in 20, 30, 40, 50 years everyones goals become your goals. That effect doesn't happen from negative knee jerk, slap stick reactions. It comes from education and posting facts and data not conjecture. The first copy/past comes directly from your first link. (abstract only because I'm to lazy to read the whole thing): We conclude that spearfishing, like other forms of fishing, can have rapid and substantial negative effects on target fish populations. Careful management of spearfishing is therefore needed to ensure that conservation obligations are achieved and that fishery resources are harvested sustainably. This is particularly important both for the GBRMP, due to its extraordinarily high conservation value and world heritage status, and for tropical island nations where people depend on spearfishing for food and income. To minimize the effects of spearfishing on target species and to enhance protection of functionally important fishes (herbivores), we recommend that fishery managers adjust output controls such as size- and catch-limits, rather than prohibit spearfishing altogether. This will preserve the cultural and social importance of spearfishing in coastal communities where it is practised. Copy and paste from the second link: For a year (2011) we surveyed spearfishing in 23 Jamaican beaches. Spearfishing has expanded from approximately 1% of fishers in 1991 to about 10% in 2011. The fishery is larger than expected and probably produced 4 000tons per year. Though reef fishes dominated catches, other resources such as lobsters, conch and octopus were regularly taken. Many small juvenile fishes were observed in catches well below their adult or optimum sizes. A total of 58% of spear-fishers reported they would have significant difficulty finding alternative employment if spearfishing was banned. Spearfishers reported exploiting the entire island shelf and also nearly all the offshore banks, especially Pedro Bank. Night spearfishing was common and targeted sleeping reef fishes. The activity is banned and should be enforced. Our recommendations include: register all spearfishers, actively manage spearfishing, a partial ban for part of the year and a ban on using scuba and hookah gear for spearfishing. Rapid increase, taking fish smaller than optimum size(length limit). Employment dependent on spearfishing(commercial) and breaking the laws. Last line: Actively manage spearfishing, partial ban for part of the year. Both these articles come from Ocean reef locations in which actual visibility is oftentimes 100ft or more compared to what I would describe in our lakes as less than 10 ft. To summary in my own word based on only the top 2 articles: Spearfishing can be detrimental to fisheries if it is not actively managed. This includes length limits to allow fish to grow, bans on spearfishing during part of the year, output controls. I don't think you would get an argument out of anyone on this board that spearfishes. It is my opinion(and likely those others that partake) that AGFC actively does this today I would also presume that if they saw this as detrimental they would adjust laws accordingly. Article 3-discusses un-regulated spearfishing as well in a reef environment and once again explicitly calls for rules and regulations. Article 4 and 5 are just brief synopsis written that quote dozens of other studies. All linked to a oceanic environment and discuss further regulation for size/harvest limits. Most of these studies it appears to me were done in less privileged countries(Caribbean, Chilean, Pacific Island) or beach communities where fishing is a significant economic driver be it through catch and keep or commercial regulations. While fishing is a significant economic drive in Southwest Mo/Northwest Ark, surely we can certainly agree that general conservation is much, much different here than there.

I agree I would like to see a slot limit. It probably would lead to larger fish on average being caught. I've fished ponds with big bluegill and bass. I've also fished a pond so full of 2" bluegill I couldn't lift a throw net after throwing it because there was nothing there to harvest them. They were essentially the top predator much like a Walleye or Bass without human intervention. It still doesn't settle the stabbing debate though. Still I think the spotlighting deer and turkeys on the roost is a stretch but once again yes you are right laws have changed. I would push those activities closer to the spear fishing in the river but obviously your opinion differs than mine. Your probably right spear fishing will eventually be off limits but with your doomsday outlook my kids probably will see a day when all you can do is catch and release or pay by the pound harvest if theres even fish around by then. Your at least making a legitimate claim albeit with other species that there is decimation going on(not from spearfishing specifically but from catch and keep practices as a whole). You bring up alligator gar and black buffalo but were talking walleye, stripers, and panfish. Two of which are considered essentially put and take fisheries at this time and the other being one of the most prolific fish in the lake all the while being essentially bait for the other fish. The management for fish size is already being done. Texas does the share-a-lunker program, multiple states stock florida strain lm, Tecomate is already working on the La Perla ranch in south Texas on doing a forage program to break the world record bass and have been quite successful. Ask yourself do you really want to see that come to a public watershed like the white river chain? Sure do it on private lakes or even on an assisted stocking basis or in a man manipulated fishery like Taneycomo but do you really want that to be the entire goal for all fisheries? Are you okay with genetically modified super fish being throw into these lakes just so you can get back to catching those record sized Walleye at the pothole? At the end of the day, I don't agree with MDC and AGFC on every single move they make but I have to believe that they spend their time and money studying and making decisions in the best interest of ALL user groups. That means balancing people that want to catch big fish, those that want to eat fish, those that want to catch a lot of fish, those that want to release fish, and those that just want to run up and down the lake with 5 fish in their live well. The root of my whole post comes to this. Would you have had the same response on his post if he caught the same sunfish on rod and reel and kept it? I highly doubt it. In fact, you probably wouldn't have commented because there wasn't a way to further your agenda against "stabbers." That's where your biggest beef is. You can spin it however you want with population decimation, ethics, or even legality but it really comes down to those groups that you perceive are decimating fishing populations by a means you don't like. Why spear fishing is included I don't know because frankly I don't know of anyone that goes after carp. Identical to how the Pomme forum had a post on a fish kill, in the time of year when fish kills happen and you immediately asked if they had stab marks in them.

Use an argument where you actual delineate between a legal and an illegal activity. Sure it is illegal in Missouri for game fish but I don't see any lake in Missouri kicking out those records either. I think all of as sportsmen have to draw and very clearly see the difference between illegal activities done by those with malicious intent vs. those that abide by the laws. Maybe just maybe its not the spear fishermen or the bow fishing guys that are destroying everyones chances at a world record. Its quite possible that the increase in people partaking in our sport, the internet, development, pollution, and lake age all account for the biggest most significant barrier to that world record happening. BTW you can spear fish striper in Bull Shoals.....didn't a record just come from there not to long ago? You continue to reference deer so here you go. Spearfishing would be closest to spot and stalking a deer with a bow. You have limited range and limited visibility and you have to be in the area the game is. Sure you can close in on bedding areas or feeding areas but thats identical to what is done in deer hunting. QDM shows that selective harvest works in that situation so why are you so against it? Is it just the means is too easy. If thats the case then I hope you never bait fish since that would be too easy or use a sonar or god forbid one of the high tech graphs that tells you right where those fish are. Or even a boat cause that would probably make it too easy for true anglers. Maybe bow fishing could be similar to driving around back roads shooting that monster buck with a spot light but thats not what was in the original post that you drew comparisons too. You cant spearfish in the river and I agree with the assessment there that the fish are closed off tight quarters similar to hunting a small high fence operation. Much much different than diving in a lake thats 10's of thousands of acres surface area. You very clearly only want to C&R big fish and thats fine and you can manage for that. Thats how you end up with pay lakes that restrict use and access. Remember though you still have to harvest some of those fish otherwise you will end up with a bunch of stunted fish. The lakes were talking about are public lakes and the rules/management are designed such that the majority of all users have a chance to enjoy either catch and keep or catch and release wether you like it or not. I don't intend to change your mind because you are very clearly set in your ways. I just couldn't stand the completely fictitious comparisons being used and frankly I have nothing better to do today.

Correct but nothing says you have to shoot those 5lbers. You know you can selective harvest deer as well and guns certainly kill them deader than dead. Just because you have a spear does NOT mean you have to shoot everything you see. You can also target only 5# plus walleye by going up any river system in Feb.-April and fishing with creek chubs. I've seen people all over on the banks that time of year way up the Kings or Roaring river doing the exact same thing your talking about. I've also seen them drag out plenty or 5-13 lb walleye and right into the live well they go. Why would I want to get into any of the rivers in 50 degree or less water where the females spawn when I can do the same thing with a rod/reel? You comparing it to Gill Nets is a joke at best. Once a net is put into the water, there is no decision to be made. Anything that swims in is dead. Even with spearfishing there is a choice to make. A similar choice is made by every rod/reel fisherman has to make once they land a fish. We already know through anecdotal evidence on this board that a significant number of those rod and reel fisherman are taking home the same walleye your complaining about spear fisherman shooting. The visibility in the videos you posted is terrible and in my experience even when rod/reel fisherman say oh the lake is gin clear the visibility diving isn't nearly what they think it is. Sure I can see a secchi disk at 20ft but most of these fish are camouflaged in the underwater environment. If you wanna play the "whens the last time game" then whens the last time Table Rock kicked out a 10+ bass. I don't see any spearfishing for them going on there. When's the last time Beaver kicked out a 10+ bass. When's the last time Bull kicked out a 10+ bass? We always hear the old timers talk about limits of 5-8lbers and that very rarely if ever happens today and you cant spear fish anyone of those lakes for Bass. You advocate for C&R yet we all know that C&R only would be a terrible idea and then you pile on when selective harvest happens by means you don't like. Your disdain from your own comments indicates you don't like it because you believe its too easy to go and shoot the biggest fish in the lake. I also know rod/reel fisherman that make fishing look easy and seemingly always go out and do well. Should we ban them to only catch and release?

I started to write this same thing. Not to mention the thousands of anglers on every lake casting a line keeping those walleye vs. the very small population that spearfish and the fact they get to keep half the daily limit and they have to abide by a season.

I would like to see some of these seat ideas. I am planning on running the MR340 in July in my Buffalo canoe and a seat modification is in order. I know 340 miles over days non-stop is much different from a simple day float but I need somewhere as a starting point.

Interesting. Is there many small mouth caught down lake say a month or so after something like this? You would think with the amount of gate activity over the last 10 or so years coupled with the primary interest in trout on Taney that there would be some really good resident small mouth living down lake.

Are these fish resident fish? If no do they move up in an event like this? If so how far are they moving up from?

You are correct. I'm pretty sure one can go up the Kings past MO/AR sign at 915' but with no marker(to my knowledge) to determine where that line explicitly is then how do you determine how far you can go? Add in flood pool and I would certainly see where someone could get quite a ways past 915' and think they are covered. I know James River is covered as there is a defined point but I don't know that they are all that clear. What about Long Creek and major creeks on Bull Shoals?

It is also my understanding that it only cover impounded waters therefore going up the Kings River once you cross into Arkansas you would no longer be in impounded waters and therefore the permit does not apply in that area. Its not explicitly stated and is a somewhat grey area due to fluctuations with lake levels but could get someone in trouble chasing whites or walleyes. If this is wrong please correct me.

Planning on heading out Saturday looking for walleye. Does anyone know how far down lake the ice is on the kings arm? I know my last trip over the 86 bridge at Carr Lane there was ice as far as I could see but does it extend past Hickory Hollow or Jakie cove? Would I be better off heading toward Eagle Rock and up the white? Is there ice at Beaver town? I know there will be quite a bit melt between now and then but knowing where its at now would help decide later.

I had a similar problem that plagued me for months. I would go out one time and end up with 3-4 gallons. Go out the next time and it would only be wet. Couldn't figure it out for the longest time. Finally ripped everything out of the bilge and put the boat in the water and just sit in a cove. Nothing ever got wet. Started the boat and ran down the lake a ways check the bilge and it has water in it. Finally opened the bilge area and checked it while running and my transducer was spraying water up onto the cables and it was running down through the grommet in the top of the hull. Adjusted my transducer and haven't had a problem since.

Way back when the browning air stream rod was mentioned I bought one for a crappie rod. I kept telling myself I needed to buy another because I liked it so much. Now that I've committed to buying one I can't seem to find them. Google shows up nothing promising. I'm planning on visiting Johnny World on Saturday to look. Any other obscure tackle store that might have one? What about something that is close in function in the same price range?

This is exactly the tips I am looking for. I've been worried I was doing something wrong.....appears is similar to jerkbait for bass just depends on the fish more or less but you all seem to be working it like a jerkbait not a crank bait. I've never ventured above fall creek but I'm basically duplicating the areas below fall creek(bluff and along the banks). Sounds like I need to suck it up and venture up on past and explore.

I tend to try it with generation when its more difficult to use a jig without up sizing. I honestly have been fishing with more pause and that may be the problem. I don't expect to have high numbers but I would have thought up to now I would have lucked into something more than 1 although it was a nice 21" rainbow.

When you throw jerkbaits are you working them like a jerkbait or are you slowly reeling them? I've tried 2 times to dedicate to just using a jerkbait and my results are very limited. I've only caught one fish. I've had a couple follows back to the boat but nothing that would commit. I'm also assuming in the deeper section of the upper lake(between 65 and fall creek) your using countdowns to get extra depth? I know with jigs you want them way down in the water column is the thought the same with jerkbaits or will the bait pull those larger trout in?

I'll second the silicone ring. I wear mine 100% of the time and wife wears hers probably 75%. Haven't had anything happen when it made a difference but lots of people have ring incidents. I find the silicone much more comfortable working, hunting, and fishing.

I much prefer braid for trolling if only for the feel(love metered braid). I know that bait is working and can tell if I have trash on my bait and can adjust. Can also tell if I am ticking bottom well before I get really hung up. Are you guys dropping your drag way down low when your pulling cranks with braid? I like to set mine tight enough a bump from a crappie would release line but sometimes I worry that hurts me when your targeting something like walleye or whites.

Good to hear the report. Cats in the wild are really one of the coolest animals. I call for coyotes quite a bit in early fall and through spring. Only called in a cat once after hundreds of stands. They are sneaky and you wont see them until they are right there. Ive trapped quite a bit but something about a cat in action looking for a meal is quite the sight. We called this cat within 5 feet of the call(electronic foxpro) less that 10 yards from us. It set down and just looked at the call. Set there about 5 minutes watching before it decided something wasn't right and sneaked off. Really cool experience.