tjm

I spent a lot of hours in the City Library back in the '70s and memorized a lot bug names and then some grad student did a research paper and changed all the names and even changed the families the bugs belonged to, and I'm pretty sure that's happened again since then, point being that entomology as such isn't going to be constant. Every crop of grad students can and will rewrite it all. I believe that I've finely managed to forget most of those bug names. One book that was small enough to carry on the water and covered most of the mayflies was Art Flick's "Streamside Guide to Naturals and Their Imitations" which has since been revised as "new" and may be available from your local library. For simple insect study that may interest you try Troutnut https://www.troutnut.com/hatches he has about the best website as far as trout related bugs go. You can learn about mayflies, caddis, and stoneflies with good images of most. the terms like 'sulfur ' "March Brown" "Blue wing Olive" are kinda vague terms for the patterns we use to imitate some types of insects and are also used to roughly designate the insects being imitated. I say vague because the terms often apply to more than one species of insect or more than one type of imitation. Sulfur generally means "yellow colored" and Blue Wing Olives/BWO can have gray wings and gray bodies to my eye although the name suggests pale blue wings and olive body. "Crackleback" is the name of a St. Louis fly pattern that is based the old Palmer style flies sometimes called "woolly worms". It is confused on whether it wants to be a dry fly that is fished underwater or a wet fly that is fished as a dry. A web search of each term with 'fly fishing' included in the search bar should find lots of explanations. You can take a handful of rather generic Catskill or parachute dry flies, to represent the adult mayflies or "Duns" and something like an Elk Hair Caddis/EHC to represent all the "sedges" or caddis flies and basic nymphs like the Pheasant Tail, sparse woolly bugger and the Hare's Ear/GRHE to represent most larvae, along with a marabou leech or two and catch fish just about anywhere and even if the imitation isn't a hatch match, if it is the right size and delivered to the right spot it will often catch a "selective" trout. So intimate knowledge of the insects isn't necessary for fly fishing. As to hatches, they are a lot more important in places that I have never fished than they are in places that I have fished. I've read many a tale about needing perfect matches, of millions of insects and hatches that lasted hours, but my experience runs more like a couple hundred insects sporadically hatching over a hour and the fish paying only mild attention to them. I guess that in my ~50 years of fly rod fishing I've just been very lucky to never have encountered a single large hatch, although I've seen hundreds of smallish hatches. I don't recall a time when my fly actually matched the hatch either but I always managed to find a stupid fish or two.

Why not fly fishing friendly? I've never been there that I recall.

Firefox extension "uBlock Origin" eliminates all that stuff. I added it just because Firefox recommended it and only after having it a long time discovered that was what some websites kept telling me was an "ad-blocker".

Quillback's post referenced a USACE document and if they did that at Table Rock, it would make sense that they have similar commercial zone regulations on all Corp reservoirs. I'm not sure who would have that authority on the Lake Ozarks or Taneycomo? Who licenses commercial docks on those ponds?

My use of your quote was only about ownership. Most Mo. riparian landowners do own the stream bottoms. I wasn't addressing anything that you said about camping, or passing through, just the whole notion that because some may have used the property prior to private ownership that it should mean that it can always be used by others. Just floating through is very much like just walking through. So if it makes shortcut to the store for Bob to walk through Bill's yard he should? I think that in UK many private lands are open to hiking through, based on historical foot paths in a similar manner to the case law allowing commercial use of streams was applied in the 19th century USA, my thought is that we have 20th century case law based on simple possibility rather than actual historical use and that we have extended that right of commercial use to apply to recreational use. Because semi-trucks use highways for commerce kids should be allowed to use them for skateboarding? I do believe that if we can legally camp on a gravel bar on a larger stream then that also allows us to camp on a gravel bar on any stream that we are allowed to float through. According to most, I think that means any stream that can float a tube during high water. I think it's remarkable that we don't have many more floater-owner conflicts than we do.

So do most in MO. Stream bottoms are taxed at the same rate as cropland in Mo. It's just a difference in laws as to how much control owners have over their property. Although I enjoy using other's stream bottoms as we are allowed to here, it's the same as the state allowing me to camp out in other people's yards just because it may have been the site of a trapper's camp or that of a native. It's obvious that historically everyone's yard was open to travel and camping by all who wanted to. And no doubt some yards did have walking paths cross them and no doubt some were the site of camps, so if the presumption of prior use that we apply to streams were applied to other real estate, every yard would need open gates. And there would be no gated communities either, because you can be sure that those areas had traffic of some sort way back in history. I have wondered if the Elder v Delcour were taken to a higher court if it would have stood up or if it had been tried at any other time period if it would have had a different outcome. It seems almost to have been scripted from beginning to end as though all involved collaborated. Declaring that a commercial thoroughfare is open to recreation use by floaters and fishers is kinda like saying that we are entitled to ride bicycles and roller-skates on the interstates. Not really a logical jump.

I don't think that I've read about trappers exploring the Ozarks in canoes, I'd always thought it was miners that opened this area up, but I never really studied local history either.

Kinda surprised at this. I used to want one of those Brunsell/Global dorbeRfly rods but there seemed to no way to order one, spent quite a bit of time off and on for years searching the web for a contact or catalog. If asked I would have guessed them to have closed up several years ago. I've forgotten now what got me interested, some article describing one of the rods, but can't recall what was special.

Federal definitions of navigable waters all seem to hinge of commerce, and lack of commerce would likely make any water arising on private land non-navigable until it exits the private land and passes a public access where it would become available for possible commercial use.

It probably takes death (or several) directly attributed to the dam or it's management to cause any change in operation. I would agree that horns should extend several miles down river and I also think that the horns could be wired so that a time delay between horn blast and any release of water is automatic. No horn, the mechanisms controlling gates, generation etc won't work., But I don't expect such to ever happen.

I think only the Mississippi, Missouri and Grand Rivers are considered navigable in Mo., designated so prior to statehood, and most of the "floatable" streams are only assumed to be "public thoroughfares" or easement, since the case law requires that each stream be judged on it's on merits in a Court, although some streams have been in court and judged as thoroughfares. It's widely assumed that any stream roughly meeting the Elder vs Delcour would be judged as such and can be treated as such, but it's not really the law. Under Elder v Delcour, I believe that you should have portage rights, but I know that landowners can file trespassing charges even when they are in the wrong, so you might be right but have to go to court to find it out. Or you might just be charged with trespassing and have the charges dropped later, thus avoiding the stream getting into court. Lots of past discussions relating to stream laws, for example https://forums.ozarkanglers.com/topic/31837-missouri-stream-access-law-one-more-time/#comments and if you read all of that you will find some posts relating to the water you ask about. Other threads One of the best summaries on Mo. stream laws that I know of https://styronblog.com/law/harry-styrons-missouri-stream-law/

I wouldn't bet on that I've had those snakes eat dozens of eggs while there were hundreds of mice invading the feed room the snakes crawled through to access the nest boxes. I've removed black snakes that had as many as 5 egg lumps in them and I've watched one take an egg from under a hen while she was on the nest. One summer I relocated 10-12 black snakes and there was never an indication that they had eaten even one mouse. I do suspect the occasional copperheads that I found in the feed room were there for the mice, but they made me nervous so they didn't get to stay there.

Most folks don't even think about records on fish that aren't popular target species, but AGFC says And if you examine the list of current records there are few enough species listed that many other records are vacant and could be claimed with a 1/2# fish. I'd almost bet that everyone on this forum has tossed back a state record at some point in our life, That big chub maybe? When Mo. started keeping records on alternative method catches lots of the records were smallish.

I think Taney county has provided a couple of past Mo. record suckers, it may be they just get bigger there. But the picture of the <2# in this story looks as long as the >6# record in MO. It's funny what cameras do to fish size.

Probably required to give warnings for generation, but not required to for maintenance, just following SOP. I never feel safe when wading a tailwater and don't like to get many steps from the bank, Even if they sound a warning the water can come up faster than I can wade out.

" 6 or 7 mph" I've never really tried to figure the speed of Ozark streams, but they seem on the faster side to me, does anyone know about what an average speed is on most Ozark streams or on one or two of them?

I thought that was obvious by our politics. But there are a lot of sucker-fish also.

If you look at MDC maps of the Northern Cottonmouth then yes they can be in the Elk drainage- I find it interesting how far north the map is shaded when other sources would suggest only about half that shaded area. But living between the two Sugar Creeks off and on since 1950s, and having fished and hunted in three of the Elk's tributaries over that period, I've only seen 3-4 snakes that I thought were cottonmouths (neither they nor I wanted closer inspection) and it's been perhaps 20 years since the last suspect. I don't know of anyone who has seen more than that either, and I've heard many older outdoors men argue that they don't exist in this drainage, so ... but I guess that at some place it's only a few feet between the White R. or Illinois R. drainage and the Elk drainage and it might be possible that snake got confused. There are thousands of people that report water-snakes and black rat snakes as being cottonmouths. Typically any snake within a rock-throw of water is called a "water-moccasin" by the average person. The pygmy/ground rattler do frequent some of the cedar glades near Little Sugar that I know of and likely other similar areas, but they are rarely seen as far as I'm aware. Small snakes and I guess shy. I have noticed that over the years fewer and fewer snakes get killed on the roads, back in the '80s five miles of local state highway would show 10-12 or more fresh snake kills almost daily and in recent years I driven that same stretch for weeks without seeing a single snake. I kinda relate this to greatly increased numbers of hawks, but we also have fewer box turtles and way fewer tarantulas, scorpions and lizards, so there may be an environmental change causing it.

I keep thinking how little plastic boats resemble kayaks. I wonder if the Aleuts and Yupiks would buy a "jet kayak" and I wonder if the modern "kayak" is seaworthy twenty miles off shore? I also wonder what becomes of last years plastic boats when someone upgrades, or what ever happens to old fiberglass boats? neither type seem environmentally friendly nor recyclable. An electric jet boat is interesting though, wonder if that will catch on or be too cumbersome for most to transport and launch. Battery weight alone would deter me, unless it was very close to the car.

The few timber rattlers that I've seen in the woods have been rather sluggish and non-aggressive, but I give them the right of way. Copperheads are lot more common here with my snakiest year having (IIRC) seven copperheads and two pairs of rat snakes in and around the house and out buildings in the same week and a few more over the rest of the summer. Mowing about an acre, the riding lawnmower thunked out a copper head on one round and on the next round hit another one and later that same day there were two copperheads in the feed room when I went to feed the hens. A herd of semi-feral cats seem to have cut back on the snakes since then, at least I see fewer. I detest the cats that the wife feeds but I dislike snakes just as much so it's kinda a trade off. Growing up here in the '50s, when a dog got snake bit, usually around the head or neck, it would swell up huge and the old men would say "that looks like snake bite" and after a while the dog would get better, I don't recall anyone treating the snake bites or any of the dogs dying from them.

Not dated, but on https://focusedfishing.com/ there is blurb-

"Some individuals may migrate more than 180 miles within a year while others may stay within the same 1.8-mile reach of the river. Cool temperatures and high flows trigger the migration. " It doesn't say it but those huge annual migrations up the Mississippi and Missouri Rivers used to be a major part of pioneer food gathering. A harvest that people relied on. I suspect that much of that migration is limited by dams and locks. probably also why they aren't doing as well as they did a hundred years or so ago. Apparently they need 53F rocky fast flowing water about two feet deep as a spawning place; so all those fish that used to range from the Gulf to the headwaters of the Miss., Mo., Arkansas rivers can't make those migrations any longer. In Mo. the MDC doesn't even list them in the list of Suckers on their web page yet they maintain records since the "The new “alternative method” record fish snagged by Rackers on April 21 weighed 9 pounds, 1 ounce with a length of 30 inches." from the Osage. I think that in general fish and game authorities across the USA ignore the management of non-game wildlife in favor of the money species. Suckers as a group are the most "American" of all fish, perhaps, since of 80 species worldwide all but two live only in N.America.

We crossed the country to the east coast several times with kids and fed them from local grocery stores for a lot cheaper than the average vacationer, slept them in tents too, and I wouldn't have bought them NR licenses in any of the states that we visited, by the same token I would not be paying a guide to take me fishing nor staying in a resort. Average numbers take the lows with the highs, so for every tent traveler there must be a resort traveler paying even more than the averages indicate. I'm using 70 year old fly rods, would never pay more than $150 for any rod, but I know that people are buying production plastic rods for over $1000 and the bamboo guys are spending $4-5000 for production rods. We all have our spending limits, and that NR tag may deter some, but if they have a resort, a guide and $150 fly line in the budget the price shouldn't even get a blink. He's a lot more experienced now.

I was told once, but never followed up to be sure, that the Mo. resident lifetime permits weren't valid if you moved out of state. Now I wonder if residency is required or if it really means lifetime.

Yeah, I understand that @Ham A long time ago I was keeping an Ar, license with trout all the time at around $25 total and fished the Beaver tailwater several times each year, along with many small streams in Benton county. Then one year Ar bumped the NR with trout price up to about $50 and I said "I'll not buy a license until we camp down there" and soon enough 15-20 years passed without me buying an Ar license, by that time it was up to $80. During those years I drove a lot more miles to fish in Mo. than I would have to have fished near my work in Ar. But by golly I showed the AGFC.