Water Moccasins / Copperhead Snakes

[Billfo]

Are Water Moccasins & Copperhead snakes common in the Lampe/Big Indian Creek area ?

Thanks..

[dblades]

I don't think they are any more common in that area than any other on the lake. I've seen more cottonmouth in Flat Creek than any where else. However, the biggest cottonmouth I've ever seen was crossing a cove just above the mouth of Kings River on the White.

[skeeter]

Based on what I have seen while fishing in the area since '74 I'd say Copperheads are VERY common in the back end of Little Indian. Big Indian is a much more open valley and I haven't seen them as often there. Can't say I've ever seen or identified a Water Moccasin but others tell me they are around. If you are seeing snakes in the water, don't confuse the common brown water snake with a Copperhead. Those water snakes are very curious about you and your boat and will swim right up to you and sometimes try and climb up on your transom.

On a more serious subject, there was a local fella' who lives right on Hwy. 13 badly bitten by what we think was a Timber Rattlesnake in Lampe about 10 days ago. The guy is still hospitalized receiving antivenom at $2600.00 per shot. Supposedly the snake had gotten in his living quarters located on the lower level of a building (walk-out basement). Timber Rattler is one snake you don't want to be bitten by due to their size, fang length and quantity of venom they can inject.

[techo]

I don't want to be bitten by any snake due to that would suck!

[Wayne SW/MO]

Cottonmouths aren't very common in Missouri and they spend most of there time on the bank. I've never personally seen one on a lake, but I've seen a few, very few, on creeks and rivers. I'm sure I passed many without ever seeing them. Copperheads are much more common, but seemingly not widespread. If you see one there are probably others. They tend to stay hidden, so don't get to close to wood or rocks that they can hide in. I've only seen one rattlesnake in Missouri, in Dallas Co., and was close to 4' long and 3" across. He had been run over and killed, but would have pack a punch when he was alive.

We had a small pond well back in the woods that had a moccasin in it. I was always cautious when I went fishing there to make sure it was where i was fishing. One day I was sitting on the back fishing for cats and herad my Husky making a racket in the leaves about ten feet behind me. Suddenly here came the moccasin heading for the water, and I was in the way. I still laugh because before I could make my planned escape, running, he went by me about 2' away and into the water. In retrospect, I imagine he never saw me standing there frozen in fear.

[Bill Babler]

This topic, was up and had lots of interest, about 3 weeks ago.. Don't know which branch of the Indian Creek, it is but the one that runs thru DogWood Canyon had a a person bitten by a Cotton Mouth a few weeks ago. I have seen as many snakes this year, as I believe I have in all my 50+ years. Had 3 Copperheads lying on my asphalt driveway last week one morning. Seems the flood of two years ago was good for more than just the fish.

The Timber Rattler deal sounds realy Scary.

[Flysmallie]

I don't want to be bitten by any snake due to that would suck!

I agree with techo.

[Coldspring]

Plenty of cottonmouths on Spring River (AR) and Eleven Point.

[BrianS]

If you want to see alot of cottnmouths, go up to Flat Creek and go along that bluff on the right. They are usually pretty thick there along the ledges

[SKMO]

Are Water Moccasins & Copperhead snakes common in the Lampe/Big Indian Creek area ?

Thanks..

Copperheads are pretty common statewide but they are an upland snake not particularly attracted to water. They are adapted to dry woodlands, and although I have only seen one is the water it would not be unusual to see one in or around water.

Cottonmouths are very much water related. Like DBlade said upper James around Flat Creek is a pretty common place to see them, and I have seen several on Flat Creek itself up toward Jenkins. I have seen 3 for sure cotttonmouth in Baxter to Shell Knob area in the last 20 years. Probably more but 3 I could for sure guarantee were mocs.

I think 99%+ of the snakes I see in the water are midland, diamondback, or northern water snakes. Depending on your reference most people say the midland water snake is most common in the TR area.

There are a few positive identifying characteristics of poisonous snakes in MO. (Rattlesnakes, copperheads, and water mocs) All are "pit vipers" and all will have

1) An eliptical (vertical) eye pupil, like a cat. Not round.

2) A distinct "pit" or hole between their nostril and eye.

3) Behind the butthole a pit viper has single scales on the bottom, that transition into a pair of overlapping bottom scales. Not a positive ID because there are some non-poisonous snakes that have this as well. But if behind the hole they are immediately overlapped like shingles it is not a pit viper (poisonous). Actually if you are doing a rectal exam on your snake you have probably made a positive ID from their pupils and head pits anyway, so it's probably a moot point.

4) Fangs. Again probably a moot point as you and the snake have come to terms and you are doing a dental exam.

A common layman's identifier of poisonous snakes is a triangular shaped head. This is a pretty good characteristic but not positive. Large snakes of other species can have some chunky heads. Triangular is kind of a vague term. That said all mocs, rattlers, and copperheads do seem to me to have a triangular head, but so do some other snakes, so not conclusive.

Regarding water mocs, to me a real attention-getter is how they float on the water. A regular water snake will swim mostly submerged, and scoot underwater when he sees you, usually.

A moc will float real high on the water like he is made of styrofoam and will more or less hold his ground, not really agressive but will want you to get out of his way, pretty fearless is how I would describe them.

Color and pattern is a poor way to ID snakes. They moult a couple times per season and most snakes of all varieties turn almost black before shedding their skins.

Also the diameter of a moc is pretty large. A 4' moc will probably be as big around as your lower forearm, and the tail end will taper quick from big and fat to nothing. They are really chunky, most water snakes are more streamlined.

Just my observations, I don't think there are a huge number of them on TR but a few for sure.

For the record I don't think snakes should be killed on sight, just because they are snakes. We (as humans) have an aversion to them but most are harmless and actually beneficial. My wife freaks but I have a no-kill policy around our house and we have co-habitated for years with the reptiles with nary a problem.

Bottom line is if you can get close enough to see their pupils and they are vertical slits that is 100% foolproof they are poisonous. Thats the first thing I look for. If your fishing buddy tangles with a snake and goes into convulsions it might be worth a trip to the Emergency Room. If he seemed stable and couldn't describe the pupils of the snake that bit him I'd keep him fishing if it was a good bite going on. Fish bite, not snake bite. Aw heck if it was a good snakebite I'd get his wife to pick him up on the ramp, then go back to the fish, he would understand.