Shoal Creek Tresspass Closure!

[fishinwrench]

Other creeks not in the float book:

Marble Creek - whitewater run mostly

Turkey Creek - same

Little Niangua

could probably come up with a few more

The LN is in both the old Oz H. book and the recent MDC paddlers guide.

[Al Agnew]

Al, the South Fork Saline Creek??? I have never seen it but I'm looking at my maps as we speak........lol

Your maps won't help you too much. The put-in is a tricky spot and the take-out requires asking permission to use it...although you can take out at a couple other places. Or float farther downstream in spotted bass water.

[Chief Grey Bear]

What a great discussion! And the unity here is awesome!!

I think at this point, I will schedule a meeting with the PA and get some clarification on some issues.

[hoglaw]

I don't have an opinion on the Elder case because I haven't read it. If it says what everyone thinks it says, then it's certainly binding law on the clown court, so long as the facts at issue are not distinguishable. I chimed in more to give my opinion that the lawyer's email wasn't out of line or improperly leading. I don't really remember what the facts were that led to Chief's charge in the first place. You have trials to determine facts. The jury (or judge in a bench trial) acts as the finder of facts. The judge interprets the law and how it applies to the facts that are found to be true. If everyone is in agreement on what the facts are, then it's typically pretty easy to submit a case to a judge on stipulated facts and let him determine how the law applies to those facts. At some point I'll try to read that Elder case and chime in, though I suspect you guys that have read it like Al probably got right.

[Mark]

I am new to this conversation but have read all 6 pages of discussions. It seems this debate has been going on all 53 years of my life. I think it is time we (the public) stick up for our rights.

I just want to know what my rights are. There are gray areas - navigable stream (who determines that exactly), high water mark (again who determines that) - law enforcement don't want to make that call, elected county officials don't want to make that call, the landowner has his mind made up what are his legal rights, and the fisherman has his mind made up what are his rights. And no one knows or can make a case that can hold up in court who exactly is right or no one wants to spend the money to fight the case in court - so it goes on and on unresolved until the next confrontation, which always ends with law enforcement telling the accused that it is a gray area but to keep the peace will the accused just cease and desist from aggravating the landowner in the future.

I have a feeling we will still be having this same debate in another 20 years.............

[Smalliebigs]

Your maps won't help you too much. The put-in is a tricky spot and the take-out requires asking permission to use it...although you can take out at a couple other places. Or float farther downstream in spotted bass water.

Don't worry Al, I can't even find the creek......I had never fished it so it intrigued me.......I sure wish I was fishing with Mitch on the mec today.

Check that I did find it.....very nice

[Mark]

So Al, as far as you know, the Saline is a navigable river??? I have been planning on doing it for a few years but can never talk any buddies into going with me. Especially in summer, they are concerned that it is too low and we would spend all day pulling our canoe through low water spots. I actually have a landowners permission further downstream from Minnith, but I would like to put in at second slab off Brushy Creek Road. Have you floated this section? I'm taking a gamble that no one else on here will know where we are talking about.

[Al Agnew]

Heck, Mark, I've floated it (with Mary) from seven miles above that put-in. But that was in early spring with good water. By late spring it'll require a lot of scraping bottom and some walking. By summer it'll be real work. But I've floated it all the way to St. Mary and never had any trouble with landowners, anyway.

[Mark]

I figured as much Al. Skip and the boys seem to think it would be too much work. But always knew that Mary was tougher than most of my friends!!

[Tim Smith]

If it's a test case, the Illinois Smallmouth Alliance has an annual grant fund (or did) with 2K grants for good causes. Normally those are research and restoration in Illinois but THIS is a good cause and I bet if you called and explained the case to those guys (refer them to these discussion and let them see the support you have) they would be likely to help you out. These same issues apply in Illinois, Indiana and across the Midwest and if you've got the stones to push the issue they would benefit hugely as well.

You can access the granting application on the ISA web page. Deadline will be coming soon.

I suggest you speak to Mike Clifford and Jim Jozwiak and any other officers you know there ahead of time and see how they might feel about your application.

If they reject the idea because you're in Missouri you can tell them for me this is why we need a National Smallmouth Alliance....you can tell them that anyway because it's true.

Be sure to let me know where to send my Benji.