Trespass

[jdmidwest]

In light of another thread on here, I just thought I would mention something that is drilled in the MDC guides and rules over and over again. A permit to hunt and fish does not allow trespassing. You are to RESPECT others property and ask permission before you enter. Anything outside of the river in most areas is private property.

I am guessing that most posting on here do not own large parcels of land that are managed for wildlife and fishing. Most do not farm, own livestock, or make their living off of their real estate.

As a landowner, farmer, and outdoorsman, I respect others property when I float across it. I will stop and introduce myself and strike up a friendly conversation with any landowner that I come across and RESPECT his property. I don't pull out a court decision that I have the right to be there. It is in my opinion that it is a priveledge to be there.

As a landowner, I deal with trespass on a regular basis. Just yesterday, I encountered a pair of rabbit hunters exiting our property. When encountered, they were cordial, introduced themselves, and we conversed. They were hunting neighboring land, were given permission by someone other than the landowner of the property, and the dogs had run rabbits onto our property where they pursued them. They were nice and I did not stress the fact that they did something wrong, and was invited along on the next hunt. They have been using that property all season without permission from the landowner. But that is not my land and we informed him that is was not the right of the person that give him permission to let them on.

3 deer seasons ago, I encountered an individual sitting behind a deer decoy in full camo in the middle of our field on opening day of deer season. I confronted him and sent him on his way, reminding him the danger of hunting in full camo behind a deer decoy.

Seasons past I encountered another individual that routinely hunted inside of our fence on a field. When I started to approach across a 40 acre field, he would leave. This went on for 2 seasons till I finally put purple tape on all of the fence at that side of the property and stole his seat cushion. The posting drew comments from 20 locals, and only 2 of them actually owned the property that bordered us. The same area a few years back was infested by 5 hunters wearing camo a few years back with no orange one afternoon when I decided to take an opening evening drive to the field. It was a danger area for crossfire.

I have lost access to one area that I used to fish from because the landowner of the area was mad because we gated another stream acess that was becoming a drug problem. I explained to him that he was welcome, he would just have to stop and get a key, but he would not budge and I stay off his property.

Bottom line, RESPECT the persons that own land and ask permission or be nice when you do float across their land and you will probably get alot farther than you will standing up and telling them you have the right. Landowner deal with alot, trash, damage, torn fences, poached livestock, vandalism, etc, Stand in their shoes for a moment and think about it.

[Feathers and Fins]

Good Post JD,

As a member of a farming family though I do not do it myself I understand and have witnessed many things you talk about. Grandpas farm's are spread across the county in SEAR and its not uncommon for us to catch people trying to sneak in and hunt them. Year ago Gramps would allow it if they asked permission but now he will not tolerate it and will prosecute. To even hunt the property now friends must be with a family member. Gramps got tired of the trash and gates left open letting livestock out and people destroying the rice levee's. Combined with liability law suits he just wont allow it.

Farmers have it tougher then people think and tresspassers make it even worse.

[ozark trout fisher]

JD, when it comes to what you normally think of as trespassing, hunting, etc on someone's land without permission, I couldn't agree more with you. But when it comes to floating and wading navigable streams, getting out on gravel bars, etc, that is a completely separate issue in my mind, legally, but much more important ethically. And since you are talking about this more from an ethical than legal standpoint, I'll go more in that direction. It just doesn't wash in my mind that anyone can own a river or its streambed, something that begins somewhere else, and flows through the properties of so many different different people. And if I'm fishing or floating a navigable river, you sure bet that if I'm told to leave I am going to stand up for my rights, albeit politely. You mentioned that landowners don't like having their rights trampled on by trespassers; I don't like having my rights trampled on by landowners who are almost certainly in the legal (and in my opinion) ethical wrong. I don't think I cause much trouble when I am floating or wading a river. I don't litter, I don't get drunk and scream and yell like some idiots do. I always respect the rights of landowners. So as long as I stay below the high water mark, I expect to have my rights respected also.

It is worth noting that I have personally have had very little trouble from landowners in this state, and I am very appreciative of that. So it's not like I have something against the people who own land along our streams. Most all of the ones I've met have been very polite, and I can't say I've ever had a major confrontation, and just a very few minor ones.

[gotmuddy]

So far in AR I have had no problems with landowners. On NFoW there are numerous no tresspassing signs, including signs that say "stay off my gravel". They are likely put there for the party crowd but are there none the less.

[drew03cmc]

JD, when it comes to what you normally think of as trespassing, hunting, etc on someone's land without permission, I couldn't agree more with you. But when it comes to floating and wading navigable streams, getting out on gravel bars, etc, that is a completely separate issue in my mind, legally, but much more important ethically. And since you are talking about this more from an ethical than legal standpoint, I'll go more in that direction. It just doesn't wash in my mind that anyone can own a river or its streambed, something that begins somewhere else, and flows through the properties of so many different different people. And if I'm fishing or floating a navigable river, you sure bet that if I'm told to leave I am going to stand up for my rights, albeit politely. You mentioned that landowners don't like having their rights trampled on by trespassers; I don't like having my rights trampled on by landowners who are almost certainly in the legal (and in my opinion) ethical wrong. I don't think I cause much trouble when I am floating or wading a river. I don't litter, I don't get drunk and scream and yell like some idiots do. I always respect the rights of landowners. So as long as I stay below the high water mark, I expect to have my rights respected also.

It is worth noting that I have personally have had very little trouble from landowners in this state, and I am very appreciative of that. So it's not like I have something against the people who own land along our streams. Most all of the ones I've met have been very polite, and I can't say I've ever had a major confrontation, and just a very few minor ones.

OTF, I tried to think of a tactful way of saying what you just said.

[jdmidwest]

There is no gray area here, landowners own the land around and under the stream in this state. Some of our old deeds use the center of the creek in the description, other areas both sides. Elder Vs Delcor just allows you to float, wade, portage streams because the water and the fish belong to the state and are not privately owned. It does not guarantee you the right to run up the bank to take a leak, camp, party, hunt, ot acess the private lands surrounding the water. I have always heard talk about "high water line" access but I have never seen it in a description of the law. Stream banks are always considered land and are either public or privately owned. If someone can come up with a legal description that allows them to use the high water mark, then point me to that law.

My point is, like OTF, you have to be more tactful when you are on the stream. When confronted, don't just start spouting the court decision has given me the right to be here, it will always go south.

[Feathers and Fins]

Here is an example where the law needs to be changed. Lake Elmdale in Sprindale Arkansas is a lake i use to hunt for ducks. The last few year due to the cities of Springdale and Cave springs anexing into their cities it is now illegal to hunt it from the land. You can still hunt the lake but only from a boat and you must not get out of the boat onto land. This is a AGFC lake!

Here is where laws need to be made about water rights and Buffer Zones. My personal beleif is that on flowing waters that the land may well be part of the property for property line discriptions the Land and Water below the High Water Line should be PUBLIC access. It would be so simple to do that. For lakes not on private property but under the control of the State, County or Fed there should be a buffer zone of 50yrds from the high water mark. This zone would allow for shore access to all.

As populations increase and people purchtase land we will all find less and less areas available to enjoy the outdoors if something is not done. I have seen this happen in both California and Florida on the beaches. Condos and homes go up and the average Joe's loose the ability to go to them as they become "private property"

I respect landowners rights but no-one should be able to buy and make private what should be the property of the public. Buffer Zones are a must.

[gotmuddy]

I think instead of forcing landowners to let just anyone go onto their land there should be more public accesses along the stream.

[ColdWaterFshr]

Gotmuddy, I strongly disagree. No one is advocating "forcing landowners to let just anyone go on their land". And I sure don't believe that increasing the # of public accesses is the answer. I think that would spoil the beauty of many of our streams. I think there is far TOO MUCH access on many of our streams -- homemade roads and trails that have been created over the years, that people abuse, litter, and turn into eyesores. I've seen a lot of that firsthand, and I would like to see a lot of these "unofficial" roads and accesses closed.

Clarity of the law is what we would all like to see and the word "easement" comes to mind. I would like to see a published list of stream or public waterways, such as many of those listed in the MDC Floating book. Set a 20 foot from the waterline rule - as public easement, much like a public sidewalk that runs through your front yard. High water line is too variable and therefore too vague. If its not public land, obviously no camping is allowed, even within the 20 ft easement. For those streams that are NOT on the list, there would be NO public easement -- you must stay IN the water and not "loiter" -- however you want to define loiter.

[Trout Commander]

Elder Vs Delcor just allows you to float, wade, portage streams because the water and the fish belong to the state and are not privately owned. It does not guarantee you the right to run up the bank to take a leak, camp, party, hunt, ot acess the private lands surrounding the water.

It's not a gray area, but is often not understood or known by the land owner that E v. D does entitle the public to be on a gravel bar out of the water to take a leak, camp or party. You are correct in your statement that you "can't run up the bank" if you are implying up out of the river bed onto private land.