Record

[Chief Grey Bear]

Will send to those interested.

Forgot to add, I would love a copy.

[Chief Grey Bear]

Where I'm coming from, in the end, is that I simply want more protection for those fish which have survived to the 14-15 inch mark and have the potential to get big. I'm not a huge fan of the 1 fish/15 inch strategy, because I think it just means a lot of fish are being cropped at 15 inches. The guys who catch and eat and who follow the law are probably able, on most streams, to catch enough of the other bass species to help make a meal, but are never going to turn down a gift 16 inch smallie to supplement their stringer of largemouth and/or spotted bass. Except in a few SWMO streams, a 15 inch smallmouth isn't really all that much of a quality fish. The 18 inch limit is a lot better concept, and I'd like to really know how well it's working.

I agree.

But I'm beginning to believe, even though Spence has said I'm wrong, that there really CAN be too many small fish for the food supply in some streams. My admittedly limited experience is that there are streams where the numbers are lower but the size structure is better and the fish seem to be better fed, and streams where the numbers are high but the fish look underfed.

I am jumping up and down with agreement!!!!!!!!

And in the end, regulations have to be palatable to most people or they won't work well. As much as I'd dearly LOVE to see a 1 fish, 20 inch limit on the middle Meramec (and I truly believe it would make a difference), the meat fishermen AND the tournament guys would kick and scream. But at least with a slot limit, it wouldn't be a huge difference to the meat fishermen and it would serve to protect a lot more fish that have reached a size where natural mortality isn't a huge factor and thus have the potential to get big.

I don't see any new reg's coming with the current dictator in control. He has a definite vision for himself and he is not about to make any waves one way or another.

Dan's point that lower creel limits might spread the harvest around among more anglers and not result in fewer fish actually being harvested is one I never thought of. If there are more legal sized fish in the stream, then the casual angler is presumably more likely to catch a couple of them. So instead of the good angler keeping the limit of 6 and the casual nimrod keeping 0, the good angler would keep the limit of 4 and the nimrod would maybe catch and keep 2, resulting in the same number of fish being kept between the two of them. Hmm...that's worth thinking about. On the other hand, one of Dan's other points is that only 15% or so are over 14 inches (for instance) so a 14-18 slot would only protect 15% of the fish, thus making little difference. But under current regs, even special regs, a large percentage of that 15% are still being harvested at 14 or 15 inches, while the slot would at the very least protect that 15% until they got up to 18 inches (or 20 inches?). If the lower part of the slot being a fewer fish limit does result in less of those under slot fish being harvested, then the best case would be that it results in more than 15% reaching the slot, and even more reaching the upper end of the slot.

Good discussion, Dan.

I am likeing me some slots! I truely think that is the way to go.

[ozark trout fisher]

I have concerns about the slot limit idea, as I believe I've already stated in some cases. I do think they could end up working well on larger rivers with abundant smallmouth populations, like the Gasconade, Current, Big Piney etc. But if they every became statewide, what would happen to the rivers that had much lower density populations? I'm talking about rivers like the Bourbeuse, and a whole bunch of smaller creeks that I can think of that already have precarious smallmouth populations due mostly to habitat issues like gravel mining, erosion etc, and in some cases competition with non-natives. A slot limit would encourage more harvest of small fish, something that could end up being devastating to these types of waters. So I don't mind slot limits in some special management areas with healthy populations that are capable of producing quality fish, but I don't think they are the answer statewide.

[Gavin]

Here's the spread, and the report...All I could really conclude is that 1>15"MLL is good for growing more 14.5" bass, and I need to fish the James.

1060_001.pdf

1059_001.pdf

[Dan Kreher]

Clearly, we need to hold some sort of smallmouth management summit including the knowledgeable folks on this Board and retired and current fisheries biologists responsible for managing our stream SMB resources. Lots of good scientific data and an abundance of anectodal experience (and admittedly plenty of conjecture) can all be thrown into the mix and perhaps we can reach some actual conclusions about the best way to manage our stream fisheries for desired outcomes -- both in a general and specific waters sense.

I would prefer to wait to convene such a meeting until the the MDC issues its two most recently conducted studies referred to above (the angler survey and the reward tagging study) as both should provide helpful insight into angler attitudes and practices.

Probably does no good to continue to kick these issues around amongst ourselves as we sort of go in circles (myself included) which is typical for such online discussions. Lots of things to think about but it might be best to run our concerns and observations by the folks with the scientific credentials and physical data in a face-to-face discussion.

Given the geographic dispersion of the interested parties on this Board, it might make sense to hold such a summit in Jefferson City or some other more centralized location. MDC fisheries guys routinely present to Missouri Smallmouth Alliance at least annually at one of our meetings in STL, but that is not too convenient for lots of folks concerned with these issues.

I will kick around the idea for holding such a summit with MSA president Matt Wier and then put forth the idea with the key players at the MDC as well as some of our retired biologists/fisheries contacts to see if such an event would be feasible. Likely hold it in winter months when more folks would be likely to attend.

Meanwhile, later this summer, I intend to reach out to fisheries managers in other states who have instituted protected slot limits on SMB streams to determine their underlying rationale, results observed and angler compliance/reaction to these regulations. I've seen plenty of articles lauding such limits, particulary wide slots like 12"-20" which end up essentially protecting about all the reasonably harvestable fish from the dinner table, but would be best to hear facts straight from the horse's mouth via personal converations.

Minnesota

Tennessee

Illinois

Virginia and others have implemented slots on one or more waters in their states and will be the ones I will target for information. A summary of these conversations would likely be published in upcoming issue of MSA's newsletter, Bronzeback News, with a link to it offered on Ozark Anglers. Could also just post that article directly with Phil's permission.

I'll get back to folks as things come together on the SMB Summit concept.

[Smalliebigs]

" I'll get back to folks as things come together on the SMB Summit concept "

Dan, please do, I for one would be extremely interested in the SMB Summit whenever or wherever it may be. Thanks for your efforts!!!

Scott

aka Smalliebigs

[Stoneroller]

Trophy regulations produce trophy fisheries. Proven fact

[Chief Grey Bear]

I'd be very interested in joining the discussion Dan. As you say though it will have to be a reasonable drive.

I vote Springfield. The heart of the Ozarks and only an hour or two more from most.

[drew03cmc]

If it were in Springfield on a weekend, I would come down. I have been following this thread closely and am in great support of a slot. Perhaps we can figure out a slot limit that would benefit every stream in the Ozarks by increasing the # of fish to 15", as well as allowing more to grow larger than 15".

[RSBreth]

If it was Springfield on a weekend I could make it and I would. The trophy area regs work pretty good for the James - a slot might work better for the whole river.