The Parable Of The Sheep

[Al Agnew]

It's undeniable that the ready availability of guns makes it easier for the crazies to get them and use them. But nobody has yet come up with a solution to that problem that doesn't disarm the law-abiding while doing little to keep guns away from the criminals and crazies. It would take many years of truly draconian gun confiscation laws to reduce the number of guns to a level that would reduce their availability to criminals. If all guns were banned in the U.S. tomorrow, how many otherwise law-abiding people would turn in their guns? And obviously, just about zero criminals would. There are so many unregistered, stolen, stockpiled guns in this country that there would be a thriving black market in them for many years. And meanwhile it would be the law-abiding gun owner who would suffer the most.

And short of doing just that, confiscating all guns, nothing will work that comes at it from a gun control direction. A few things might nibble a little bit around the edges, that's all.

When we can figure out why the U.S. is so much different from all other countries when comparing crime rates, not just gun crime rates, and mass shootings like this newest one, and then figure out how to fix THAT problem, we'll solve the gun problem.

It sickened me today to watch the preliminary court proceedings and the continual close-ups of the perpetrator. That is probably giving this nutcase exactly what he wants. I know that in America it is not possible to do this, but if we could just grab a guy like this, lock him up in an inaccessible place, spend just a little time making absolutely sure he did it (no question in this case, obviously) and then shoot him and bury the body in an unmarked grave...no media reports on any of it outside the bare facts of the case, no giving out of the guy's name, no speculation of what caused him to do it, no media circus whatsoever...maybe it wouldn't encourage other nutcases to do something similar or worse. I don't care about this guy's mental health, his history, or anything else about him. When he did this he should have simply forfeited the right to live. We shoot rabid dogs.

[jdmidwest]

Well put Al, I was just saying the same thing at the office yesterday. When it is obvious and there are several witnesses, bring them in fast, convict, enact swift punishment as they walk out the door.

Instead, this will drag out for years, millions of dollars will be spent, media will have a few good stories, he will plead insanity, and spend the rest of his life in jail. They should just go Penn State on him and really lower the boom.

[Feathers and Fins]

Al, it is the media that fuels the fire for these idiots, but like the 2nd ammendment the first 1st ammendment has to be respected and followed the double edge sword. Media fuels the nutjobs, criminals and terrorist. I like you for years have said take out the fuel and the fire will be deminished! Arrest, convict, execute problem solved, send a message the 15 minutes of fame will cost you your life!

Do away with life in prison or multiple year sentance that would be the same, rapest, child molesters etc get the death penalty as well. Do not take them to prison for years of appeals take them outside put a bullet in their brain and be done with it.

[Tim Smith]

Well put Al, I was just saying the same thing at the office yesterday. When it is obvious and there are several witnesses, bring them in fast, convict, enact swift punishment as they walk out the door.

Instead, this will drag out for years, millions of dollars will be spent, media will have a few good stories, he will plead insanity, and spend the rest of his life in jail. They should just go Penn State on him and really lower the boom.

You're suggesting he should be in a cell with Sandusky??

[tjulianc]

Al, it is the media that fuels the fire for these idiots, but like the 2nd ammendment the first 1st ammendment has to be respected and followed the double edge sword. Media fuels the nutjobs, criminals and terrorist. I like you for years have said take out the fuel and the fire will be deminished! Arrest, convict, execute problem solved, send a message the 15 minutes of fame will cost you your life!

Do away with life in prison or multiple year sentance that would be the same, rapest, child molesters etc get the death penalty as well. Do not take them to prison for years of appeals take them outside put a bullet in their brain and be done with it.

It may have some negative consequences, but the 5th amendment is just as necessary as the 1st and 2nd.

[edit]

[ness]

Hold on there, tjulianc. Don't go getting all logical on us. If the folks watching in on TV are pretty sure somebody's guilty, we ought to skip the trial, sentencing and appeals and herd folks into the nearest gas chamber. Maybe get Nancy Grace's read on it first, just to be sure we don't execute too many folks in error.

[Al Agnew]

Look, I know that this is one place where the slippery slope argument holds a lot of water. At what point would you have enough reasonable doubt in a person's guilt to make a long, careful trial necessary? There isn't anybody anywhere who doesn't know this particular guy did what he's accused of doing, so in this case I'd love to see a very quick trial and a death sentence. I would like to see the insanity plea done away with in cases like this, simply because this person, crazy or not, doesn't deserve to live.

But those protections in the Bill of Rights are put there for a reason. I know that, and I know that you can't do away with them whenever it suits you. It's nice to vent, but once we started ignoring them under certain circumstances, there would be a very real danger of losing them altogether.

My wife, who was once a mental health nurse and knows a lot about it, also pointed out that the media attention really doesn't matter as much as you think it does. People like this are convinced in their own minds that the world will pay attention them and some will admire them, or they are convinced of the rightness of their planned actions. It doesn't take much to give them the idea in the first place, and once they have the idea, some of them are incredibly capable of meticulous planning.

And when I mentioned to her that I thought this guy should simply be shot, that he doesn't deserve to live after what he did, she asked me a simple question...did I also think the teenagers in the Columbine massacre deserved the same? I thought about it, and came to the reluctant conclusion that perhaps they didn't. And then she asked me what about the even younger child who kills a smaller kid just because he doesn't really understand the finality of death? And I realized that it would be difficult to draw a line between one situation and another. Perhaps, as flawed and convoluted as it is, the justice system is the best we can do.

But I still want this guy to die.

Maybe, however, we have to look upon horrific happenings like this as being little different from a plane crash, a building collapse, or any other happening that kills a bunch of people...they are difficult or impossible to predict and difficult or impossible to prevent, and are one of the risks of modern day life.

[Feathers and Fins]

Al, there is a point of cold calculated murder both this case and columbine have that fact so both should be treated the same and that is death. A young child who does not understand or know is a completely diffrent situation.

A planned masacre is shows the calculation and knowledge of what the person/persons are doing. I am tired of hearing and reading about crimes that if the finality of death was the only verdict it might curb some of it.

[ness]

Al, you should listen to your wife more.

One of the fundamental problems with our justice system is that we've adopted the death penalty, but our justice system isn't perfect enough for that -- and it never can be. I don't think one wrongful execution can be justified because we got the other bozillion right -- one is one too many. And, at some fundamental level, we should all know that revenge isn't really any solution -- it just makes us feel good, temporarily, but it doesn't fix a thing.

Who's to say the teenagers who shot up Columbine HS are somehow not quite mature enough to have understood, but the 20-something kid who shot up the theater is? That shows your uncertainty with the process. Even if you go all the way and conclude he was fully aware of his actions, and wanted to kill as many people as he could -- is there any question this guy was simply whacko? Lock him up, figure him out, whatever. But killing him doesn't fix a thing. Surely you're just spouting off in the heat of the moment.

Overcrowded jails, endless appeals, money spent, whatever -- they're the symptoms of a (mostly) fair and civilized system. We're lucky we've got it.

[Mitch f]

Al, you should listen to your wife more.

One of the fundamental problems with our justice system is that we've adopted the death penalty, but our justice system isn't perfect enough for that -- and it never can be. I don't think one wrongful execution can be justified because we got the other bozillion right -- one is one too many. And, at some fundamental level, we should all know that revenge isn't really any solution -- it just makes us feel good, temporarily, but it doesn't fix a thing.

Who's to say the teenagers who shot up Columbine HS are somehow not quite mature enough to have understood, but the 20-something kid who shot up the theater is? That shows your uncertainty with the process. Even if you go all the way and conclude he was fully aware of his actions, and wanted to kill as many people as he could -- is there any question this guy was simply whacko? Lock him up, figure him out, whatever. But killing him doesn't fix a thing. Surely you're just spouting off in the heat of the moment.

Overcrowded jails, endless appeals, money spent, whatever -- they're the symptoms of a (mostly) fair and civilized system. We're lucky we've got it.

I've got to tell you Ness, some of your statements I agree with and some I don't. But....... What if you had a child killed in the theatre?

The guy was 25 years old, old enough to drink, old enough to drive, old enough to defend our country. I think in this case the death penalty is just.

We've raised a bunch of little pussies in this country in the last 20 years or so. No losers....you're not a loser son, you're the eighteenth winner! No child left behind! We've dumbed our society down to the point where every kind of behavior is acceptable. Absolutely no personal responsibilty anymore. Studying them for twenty years to determine that his daddy didn't give him enough hugs is not the answer.

You say the death penalty won't fix anything, the Only thing I can say that it could have a positive effect on the families of the victims.

Honestly though Ness, I don't know what the right answer is in every situation. But I do feel the death penalty is justified here.