Good Smallmouth Creeks?

[fishinwrench]

Dont fret T man....Cook yourself some....Most are with you...but they dont want to waste time argueing with Chief or Drew.

I've heard that Chief can catch a fish. Self important....details v. big picture......hopeless cause...Searching for perfection as defined by him.... in an imperfect world...Good luck with that! Probably still darn good at what he likes to do. Kinda guy you might learn something from if he ever got his ego out of the way.

Drew..not sure what to make of him...Kinda like a mini-me Chief.....leads with his heart....detail guy...cares about stuff that he thinks is important...zip for river time as far as I know...Always shows up for an argument....but no fishing pic....Somebodies Stunt double?

Oh Cool, free readings?

Do Me

Do Me!

[Chief Grey Bear]

Gavin basically nailed it - it's not that they are native to the northern ozarks, or that they're having no effect on smallies. Its just pointless to argue about it with Chief and drew. Despite the stocking records, the genetics, the biology, and the observations of anglers and scientists, theyve willed spots into being a native species with no negative impacts. Theyre working from the assumption that, since smallmouth & spots coexist in the streams they fish, the same must be true everywhere. I get it. I love the Cardinals, I think theyre a great team, and I grew up in a place where everyone else loved them, too. But itd be silly to assume, given my limited knowledge base, that everyone, everywhere likes them. Anyway my point is it's the same argument each winter. And for me it's reached the point of Lucy holding the football for Charlie Brown. That spots are nonnative to the northern ozarks, were stocked in the 20th century, subsequently invaded other systems & hybridized with native smallnouth is all coroborated by research and angler observations. Unless they have information which disproves the body of evidence, I'm really not interested in rehashing the discussion.

Pretty close except one problem. I would like for you, Al, or Gavin to find one post where I said, or Andy said that they are naitve to the waters in question. You won't because you can't. But keep preaching it son.

All I have ever said was you can not prove that their migration into the Meramec system was directly attributed to man. And you can't. Did you forget they are naitve to the Mississippi? Did you forget the Meramec drains into the Mississippi? You are aware that fish move around? You do recall the tagging studies of the smallmouth by the MDC? Do you think it is only smallmouth that move around?

Are they displacing smallmouth in the Meramec system? Does anyone have any scientific studies to collaborate it? According to Al, they haven't done any studies in the area. So it is hard to say. Opinions are not fact. I do know that the MDC has always listed habitat degradation as the number one cause of smallmouth decline. That is a fact.

So if you have facts, present them.

[Mitch f]

Oh Cool, free readings?

Do Me

Do Me!

You might find out that you were actually destined to be one of those Ted Nugent gun toter types, or possibly Richard Simmons' soul mate....be careful what you wish for!

[Wayne SW/MO]

If you look at the situation from a common sense standpoint it doesn't take much to see big changes in the streams. They're rapidly filling in at the same time springs are diminishing causing the water to warm. Smallmouth don't do well in hot water and they avoid it. The spots have always had access to every river in Missouri, the dams haven't been here forever!

[Al Agnew]

If you look at the situation from a common sense standpoint it doesn't take much to see big changes in the streams. They're rapidly filling in at the same time springs are diminishing causing the water to warm. Smallmouth don't do well in hot water and they avoid it. The spots have always had access to every river in Missouri, the dams haven't been here forever!

Wayne, what I'll disagree with you on (still not arguing with Chief and Drew is that it's very possible they did NOT have a USABLE direct connection to the norhern Ozark streams. As you probably remember, my theory is that the Missouri River was historically too turbid, and made the Mississippi too turbid between the Missouri and the Ohio, for spotted bass to move through it, or want to move through it. But when the dams were built on the upper Missouri, it cut the silt load downstream considerably and the Mississippi became a spotted bass highway. And the Diversion Channel gave them a shorter route up the Mississippi.

Spotted bass are native to Whitewater River in southeast Missouri, a south-flowing stream that once flowed into the Castor River, which flowed down through the bootheel of Missouri and into Arkansas well before entering the Mississippi well below the mouth of the Ohio. Apple Creek is right across a divide to the east, same latitude as Whitewater, but flows directly into the Mississippi in the stretch of the Mississippi above the Ohio. There were no spotted bass in Apple Creek until sometime around the late 1960s, and even when they showed up, they were only found below the Appleton Mill dam, so they had to come up from the Mississippi. Given that the climate hadn't changed all that much yet at that time, and given that Apple Creek was always perfect spotted bass habitat, there had to be something that kept them from getting there before the 1960s. I believe the Diversion Channel, which cut off Whitewater River and directed it into the Mississippi just 20 miles or so downstream from the mouth of Apple Creek, gave them a shorter route, and all the upper Missouri River dams were in place by the late 1960s.

I would be willing to bet money that, if the genetics of Meramec River spotted bass were ever studied in depth and compared to Whitewater/Castor River spotted bass genetics, they would be a match, as would the genetics of spotted bass in Apple Creek and the other streams flowing directly into the Mississippi between the Diversion Channel and the Meramec.

Two human actions, the dams on the Missouri and the Diversion Channel, allowed spotted bass to reach the Meramec. That's my theory.

[Chief Grey Bear]

Wayne, what I'll disagree with you on (still not arguing with Chief and Drew is that it's very possible they did NOT have a USABLE direct connection to the norhern Ozark streams. As you probably remember, my theory is that the Missouri River was historically too turbid, and made the Mississippi too turbid between the Missouri and the Ohio, for spotted bass to move through it, or want to move through it. But when the dams were built on the upper Missouri, it cut the silt load downstream considerably and the Mississippi became a spotted bass highway. And the Diversion Channel gave them a shorter route up the Mississippi.

Spotted bass are native to Whitewater River in southeast Missouri, a south-flowing stream that once flowed into the Castor River, which flowed down through the bootheel of Missouri and into Arkansas well before entering the Mississippi well below the mouth of the Ohio. Apple Creek is right across a divide to the east, same latitude as Whitewater, but flows directly into the Mississippi in the stretch of the Mississippi above the Ohio. There were no spotted bass in Apple Creek until sometime around the late 1960s, and even when they showed up, they were only found below the Appleton Mill dam, so they had to come up from the Mississippi. Given that the climate hadn't changed all that much yet at that time, and given that Apple Creek was always perfect spotted bass habitat, there had to be something that kept them from getting there before the 1960s. I believe the Diversion Channel, which cut off Whitewater River and directed it into the Mississippi just 20 miles or so downstream from the mouth of Apple Creek, gave them a shorter route, and all the upper Missouri River dams were in place by the late 1960s.

I would be willing to bet money that, if the genetics of Meramec River spotted bass were ever studied in depth and compared to Whitewater/Castor River spotted bass genetics, they would be a match, as would the genetics of spotted bass in Apple Creek and the other streams flowing directly into the Mississippi between the Diversion Channel and the Meramec.

Two human actions, the dams on the Missouri and the Diversion Channel, allowed spotted bass to reach the Meramec. That's my theory.

I am not discounting your theory Al. It is a valid theory. I am just saying there are other factors involved and we can't point the finger at just one. If you will remember, there was also a very severe drought in the early 80's that dropped both the Mississippi and Missouri rivers to the point nothing was moving. There was more water moving in the Missouri this summer during the drought than there was in the drought of the early 80's and we were swimming all over the river near Boonsville without any worries. Heck, you could literally walk, and we did, half way into the river. The spots would have no trouble moving around. And really it was surprisingly clear. We went for some catfishing and I was really bumed I didn't bring my bass gear. I would have loved to catch a bass out of that big water.

[fishinwrench]

You might find out that you were actually destined to be one of those Ted Nugent gun toter types, or possibly Richard Simmons' soul mate....be careful what you wish for!

Good point, request retracted.

[Terrierman]

Simmer Al, just messing with the new kid.

That's really funny.

[Flysmallie]

Good point, request retracted.

I'll tell you what I think of you.

[Gavin]

Good point, request retracted.

Heck with that....You asked...Thinking that you are probably a superstar boat mech, but underemployed for a person with your inate talents. Fierce independence, and a take no crap attitude, plus a good sense of humor. I am sure that you are a heck of a fisherman. Coldwater would do a better write up...PM him with your sordid biographical details...

No bad feelings for Chief or Drew.They are who the are. Just dont want to argue east coast spot issues with them again.

.