Good Smallmouth Creeks?

[exiledguide]

I just made sausage and turkry leg Gumbo ........yall made me think about it with the rantings on here..................my new caphalon 4 & 1/2 quart pot which my bride gave me for xmas is perfect for the job.............wish I had some duck breast

[Chief Grey Bear]

Sorry man, I'll take Bill Pfleiger's words as the most likely correct ones about fish in Missouri.

Certainly nothing wrong with that.

Not positive though, how many smallmouth have been displaced by Spots. Kind of a tough one to prove. Could be a valid theory though. I'd say loss of prime habitat has done far more damage than Spots.

[Chief Grey Bear]

I just made sausage and turkry leg Gumbo ........yall made me think about it with the rantings on here..................my new caphalon 4 & 1/2 quart pot which my bride gave me for xmas is perfect for the job.............wish I had some duck breast

Save me some!

[Al Agnew]

Terrierman, I ain't gonna argue with Chief and Drew over the spotted bass thing again, but those of us who have fished the Meramec and Gasconade River systems since before the 1980s know that spotted bass weren't there before then, and are there in huge numbers now, and during the exact same time period that the spotted bass moved in, stream section by stream section, the smallmouth population severely declined. They moved in on their own, so I'm not sure "introduced" is the right word for it. The closest that humans came to introducing them was somebody stocking them in Lake of the Ozarks a long time ago, and MDC stocking some streams north of the Missouri River in the late 1960s. And if they moved in on their own by coming up the Mississippi to the Meramec, as I believe with what I think is very good evidence, it was due not to climate change as Wayne suggested but to a couple of other human-caused actions with unintended consequences. And while the habitat has declined on SOME stream sections that the spotted bass have invaded, it hadn't declined at the time they started moving in, and it has actually gotten better in some stream sections.

It probably can't be proven, but I've spent more than 50 years on these streams and I know exactly what I've seen. I'm pretty close to 100% sure that I'm right in what I just said above. The spotted bass have been an unprecedented disaster to smallmouth fishing on the worst affected stream sections, and I will not ever keep a smallmouth on those sections, and I will kill every spotted bass I legally can.

And...by the way, I have ZERO problems with spotted bass on streams where they were native. They're great gamefish, and interesting and beautiful creatures. I only have a problem with them on the streams where I watched them invade and push out the smallmouth.

And that's all I'm going to say on the subject.

[Terrierman]

Terrierman, I ain't gonna argue with Chief and Drew over the spotted bass thing again, but those of us who have fished the Meramec and Gasconade River systems since before the 1980s know that spotted bass weren't there before then, and are there in huge numbers now, and during the exact same time period that the spotted bass moved in, stream section by stream section, the smallmouth population severely declined. They moved in on their own, so I'm not sure "introduced" is the right word for it. The closest that humans came to introducing them was somebody stocking them in Lake of the Ozarks a long time ago, and MDC stocking some streams north of the Missouri River in the late 1960s. And if they moved in on their own by coming up the Mississippi to the Meramec, as I believe with what I think is very good evidence, it was due not to climate change as Wayne suggested but to a couple of other human-caused actions with unintended consequences. And while the habitat has declined on SOME stream sections that the spotted bass have invaded, it hadn't declined at the time they started moving in, and it has actually gotten better in some stream sections.

It probably can't be proven, but I've spent more than 50 years on these streams and I know exactly what I've seen. I'm pretty close to 100% sure that I'm right in what I just said above. The spotted bass have been an unprecedented disaster to smallmouth fishing on the worst affected stream sections, and I will not ever keep a smallmouth on those sections, and I will kill every spotted bass I legally can.

And...by the way, I have ZERO problems with spotted bass on streams where they were native. They're great gamefish, and interesting and beautiful creatures. I only have a problem with them on the streams where I watched them invade and push out the smallmouth.

And that's all I'm going to say on the subject.

^^ And that's why if we're out on the river & I want to cook some fish and I can take spotted bass, I will.

[Gavin]

Dont fret T man....Cook yourself some....Most are with you...but they dont want to waste time argueing with Chief or Drew.

I've heard that Chief can catch a fish. Self important....details v. big picture......hopeless cause...Searching for perfection as defined by him.... in an imperfect world...Good luck with that! Probably still darn good at what he likes to do. Kinda guy you might learn something from if he ever got his ego out of the way.

Drew..not sure what to make of him...Kinda like a mini-me Chief.....leads with his heart....detail guy...cares about stuff that he thinks is important...zip for river time as far as I know...Always shows up for an argument....but no fishing pic....Somebodies Stunt double?

[LittleRedFisherman]

We've probably fished the same holes.

I grew up catfishing several areas along the St.Francis: Parkin, Round Pond, Cody, and the Huxtable pumping station to name a few. Some of the best fishing of my life.

Ive lived in the Ozarks for 12 years now, and really miss the old muddy river.

My favorite time is when the bugs get out in April, those nats gat all clogged in your airways running down the river.

I always liked fishing when the mayfly's swarm the spotlight, the flathead always seem to bite good on those nights! Sounds like you are fishing further south, I"m up here in Clay county, grew up fishing around the big city of Nimmons AR. lol

[Chief Grey Bear]

Dont fret T man....Cook yourself some....Most are with you...but they dont want to waste time argueing with Chief or Drew.

I've heard that Chief can catch a fish. Self important....details v. big picture......hopeless cause...Searching for perfection as defined by him.... in an imperfect world...Good luck with that! Probably still darn good at what he likes to do. Kinda guy you might learn something from if he ever got his ego out of the way.

Drew..not sure what to make of him...Kinda like a mini-me Chief.....leads with his heart....detail guy...cares about stuff that he thinks is important...zip for river time as far as I know...Always shows up for an argument....but no fishing pic....Somebodies Stunt double?

Thanks for the kind words there Gavin. You are a heck of guy. I am not sure that it is my ego that is keeping you from learning something from me though.

Now as far as mini-me, that could also be a description of Ness.

[Chief Grey Bear]

Terrierman, I ain't gonna argue with Chief and Drew

Simmer Al, just messing with the new kid.

[Outside Bend]

Gavin basically nailed it - it's not that they are native to the northern ozarks, or that they're having no effect on smallies. Its just pointless to argue about it with Chief and drew. Despite the stocking records, the genetics, the biology, and the observations of anglers and scientists, theyve willed spots into being a native species with no negative impacts. Theyre working from the assumption that, since smallmouth & spots coexist in the streams they fish, the same must be true everywhere. I get it. I love the Cardinals, I think theyre a great team, and I grew up in a place where everyone else loved them, too. But itd be silly to assume, given my limited knowledge base, that everyone, everywhere likes them. Anyway my point is it's the same argument each winter. And for me it's reached the point of Lucy holding the football for Charlie Brown. That spots are nonnative to the northern ozarks, were stocked in the 20th century, subsequently invaded other systems & hybridized with native smallnouth is all coroborated by research and angler observations. Unless they have information which disproves the body of evidence, I'm really not interested in rehashing the discussion.